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Old 02-03-2012, 08:11 PM   #91
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by Masquerade View Post
Absolutely wrong! Do NOT table your hand if you called their bet. You are making it easier psychologically for people to bluff you. I would just say "I call, what have you got?" to get them to show in a non-aggressive way.
I agree. The key is to not come off as aggressive. It's not a point of contention. Just say to the dealer in your best genuine question voice "since I called his bet, doesn't he have to show his cards first?" Or even ask the dealer, letting the dealer know you called his river bet, who is supposed to show first?

I hate it when dealers just say "OK, turn'em up". It's like there's protocol (action goes around the table in a certain order) up until showdown. At showdown the dealer doesn't seem to give a **** about protocol. I understand speeding up the game and stuff but how much do you expect that departure from protocol to speed up the game? Just do your job and do it right! I hate being aggravated - it throws me off my game. Protocol is protocol - deal with it! Don't make me guess how you're going to run your game!
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:44 PM   #92
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

"whatcha got, I called" is all I have to say.
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Old 02-04-2012, 05:40 AM   #93
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by kyleb View Post
The idea that immediately tabling your hand when you call actually speeds things up is pretty funny. The reality is: You call, you table your hand, and he hems and haws and flicks his cards while showing a bunch of people how he missed his eight-outer - or better yet, he slowrolls you. It takes just as long and you lose 0.0001% of equity in the future.
I promise you this is not true. Keep in mind you only see your tables, and your selective memory only stores the times that happened to you or otherwise annoyed you. You don't remember the times it goes quite smoothly, because they don't register any more than you remember breathing yesterday.

I see all the tables, all the hands. Tabling immediately at showdown speeds up the game tremendously. Please do it, every time.

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Just sit there, don't say anything, and make him follow the rules. Otherwise you are enabling him and others.
I'm okay enabling people who want to play poorly. I want them to stay that way.
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Old 02-04-2012, 02:30 PM   #94
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Well, no, I am not going to table my hand out of order. Change the rules of the poker room if you want that to happen.

The same people who won't turn their hands up in order and bitch about their hands are the same that will stall when you turn your hand up out of order.

I turn my hand up for the idiot fish who don't know any better; I am friendly with them and I want them to remain my customer. I am not stupid, I know how the ecosystem works.

But I do not extend this courtesy to nitty regs who I don't want in the game anyway. This group is the group that predominantly bets, gets called, then hems and haws. **** them. They aren't particularly good to win money from and they make the games worse. I am happy to see them go.
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:06 PM   #95
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Such animosity towards others. This can't be good for your game.

Anyway, to everybody else, the above is how you look when you refuse to just table your cards if you think you have a winner. The rules even say that if you feel like you have a winner, table it immediately reardless of betting order.

Choosing to be a jerk to the old guys who are jerks is how you eventually become that old jerk.
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:09 PM   #96
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Yes, I admitted that I say all of those things. Especially "how can you call with that." I love saying that at the table at least three times per hour.

Or maybe I'm the only one who cares about the rules.



For the fish who donate money, I am cordial to them and will table my hand out of order. For the nits who make the game worse (e.g. the guy Rapini is talking about), they can rage on, get mad, and leave the game. That only reflects poorly on them, not me.

I also find it hard to believe that I'm keeping my emotions close to the surface when this is the exchange:

Bettor: "Ah I missed."
Me: "..." (looking down at concealed cards)
Bettor: "Stupid flush draw."
Me: "..."
Bettor: *flicks cards*
Dealer: Show your hand please, Bettor.
Bettor: *hems and haws*
Bettor: *exposes hand*
Me: *exposes hand in 10ms after seeing Bettor exposes his hand, loses to a slowroll, says nothing*

Not a lot of emotion there.
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Old 02-04-2012, 04:08 PM   #97
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

To others, I ninja edited a long post, so Kyle was responding to that. I felt it was inappropriate, which is why I edited it out. Too late, it seems.

You're right, I don't know your specifics. I just know trends that I see all day every day. I RARELY see the kind of slow roll you describe. But I often see showdown greatly accelerated by somebody - ANYBODY - tabling cards.

It's in the rules that if you feel you have a winner, you should table it, regardless of betting order. It's right there.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:29 PM   #98
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by Rapini View Post
Obviously I'm probably making a bigger deal out of this than it is, but I find it simply unacceptable because:
  • it slows down the game,
  • annoys the dealers,
  • annoys the other players,
  • and I end up looking like a bad guy for wanting the game to be played properly when the two of us are just sitting there at the showdown without showing.

I find YOUR position unacceptable, becuase it is YOU who are doing all of this. YOU are slowing down the game, YOU are annoying the dealer, and YOU are annoying the players.

What you are doing is slowrolling. If you called, you generally think you won, which means you should just table your damn hand.

I mean, im sure it will completely change the game when you find out that the opponent went all in because he rivered 2 pair on a x5678 board with 58, but consider how much time YOU are wasting taking more money from these players. Are the chips not enough for you?

I fully expect the players of 2+2 to end this nonsense of taking forever to table their hand. what you and your opponent are doing is quite literally my least favorite thing about poker
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:08 PM   #99
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

When I call and the bettor says "ur good" I leave my cards face down and say "then muck ur cards" at which point I scoop pot and muck mine as well. I don't have to show if they won't.
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:58 PM   #100
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Id try not to sweat it. remember these guys are often recreational and they have pride, adrenaline, and ego's. A bit and back and forth at show down is all part of it.

Asses each situation as it comes. Sometimes its best just to flip em over sometimes its better to wait and insist you see there cards. I suggest if you want to see there holding often times its just best to sit there and not move or say a thing.

Never get emotional about these kind of things !!

I embrace show down hesitation. I have become almost immune to slow rolls (Though not completely you understand) If I see a recreational player slow roll someone I find it hilarious I laugh out load cus its funny ! (It really is when you look at it.) thats the kind of stuff these guys should be encouraged to do ! along with showing bluffs and being egotistical. as long as you can separate yourself from the emotion and make correct decisions in spite of all this "I have something to prove" mentality then thats all that matters IMO.
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:02 PM   #101
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by kyleb View Post

For the fish who donate money, I am cordial to them and will table my hand out of order. For the nits who make the game worse (e.g. the guy Rapini is talking about), they can rage on, get mad, and leave the game. That only reflects poorly on them, not me.
I feel like a broken record in B&M today, but it doesn't matter who it reflects poorly on. Situations where people are mad make the poker table a not-fun environment. Non-fun environments make fish not have fun. This may or may not make them leave, but I can say from personal experience fish play significantly worse when they are having a good time.

Even in the relatively emotionless situation you are describing you are creating a period of time that is both tense and boring. If you think you're going to win, flip your hand over. If not don't. You lose very little value flipping your hand over in this scenario(you have called with a relatively strong hand).

The nits are bad for the game in certain ways. But saying "they're bad for the game so **** them" is not the way to handle things imo. The way to handle it is do whatever you can do, obviously without sacrificing value, to minimize the negative effects on the game. One thing you can do is not get into these stupid showdown wars.
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:04 PM   #102
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by VinnyStax11 View Post
When I call and the bettor says "ur good" I leave my cards face down and say "then muck ur cards" at which point I scoop pot and muck mine as well. I don't have to show if they won't.
As has been mentioned a couple times in this thread, this is simply not true in many(most?) casinos.

There is a distinction between casinos where you are allowed to muck and win. I think its much more acceptable to force them to show or muck first because there is now some chance that your hand can indeed be good and you won't have to show. I still don't think I would make a big deal out of it because i think the overwhelming majority of the time its not worth it. But i could at least see some argument for refusing to show first in that case even when you thought you were good.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:00 AM   #103
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

why would you not want extra info on your opponent? this game is all about making assumptions on incomplete info. every bit helps. if i call, they better show their damn hand or muck it. plane and simple. rules are ****ing rules ffs people.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:06 AM   #104
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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why would you not want extra info on your opponent? this game is all about making assumptions on incomplete info. every bit helps. if i call, they better show their damn hand or muck it. plane and simple. rules are ****ing rules ffs people.
A bit of a rehash of the thread so far, but I would simply say three things:

1) The general custom I have observed is to, the majority of the time, showdown and allow your opponent to muck in this situation. Generally we follow customs that are widely accepted even if they are slightly detrimental to us( in life and poker)

2) In my opinion any small value you get out of seeing the hand is offset by making the game a bad environment to play in and wasting time that you could otherwise spend playing poker.

3) On a related note, poker should be fun. I don't find these retarded showdown stare-downs to be fun so in order to ensure that I have fun I try to avoid them. Poker is, and should be, about more than just "what is the most +EV thing I can do this very moment"
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:14 AM   #105
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Grunching (just noticed who OP is).

This happens to me so often that I've got several ways of handling it none of which involve the floor which is over the top, imo.

Sometimes I flip my hand w/o waiting, sometimes I just stare at the other player, sometimes I lean my chair back w/ my hands behind my head and sometimes I'll ask the table 'Does anybody want to talk about something while we wait for this person?'

This doesn't bother me as much as it seems it does you. To me it's a minor aggravation compared to so many others and it happens so often that there's no stopping it. My suggestion is to just let it go and don't expect 'them' to understand the rules or to necessarily be considerate to the other players.
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