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Old 01-19-2008, 02:42 PM   #46
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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I really hate to be an ass here, and hate to start up this argument, but repeat after me "the IWTSTH rule is there as a means to prevent collusion, not a way to satisfy your curiosity".
My thoughts on IWTSTH are in this thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...83084#poststop

b
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Old 01-19-2008, 03:57 PM   #47
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
And another thing!

Regarding stalling so that the dealer will take care of it. Dealers have no more magical powers over the resident a-holes than you do. In some rooms, dealers have even less power, as they're not allowed to confront or do anything that might further antagonize a regular, no matter how obnoxious he is. But a dealer certainly can't grab someone's cards and flip them over.

More often than not against the repeat offenders, I'd be saying, "turn over your hand please.. you're first.. show it or muck.. turn over your hand." and it'd go nowhere. It's even more ridiculous in a multi-way pot. You know what got things going? When someone would show cards. "Okay! Five-high is currently the best hand. Prove to me that it's not." And I'd start pretending to push the pot to whatever crap hand tabled first. That gets everyone showing down in a hurry.
I like what most of the Soaring Eagle dealers do: "First one to show me two cards wins"
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:23 AM   #48
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
One more thing, just general showdown tip...

State your hand. Either your hole cards, or, better, how they relate to the board. "I have a straight." or whatever.
How long you been dealing? You need help reading the hands?

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Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
Regarding stalling so that the dealer will take care of it.
I'd be saying, "turn over your hand please.. you're first.. show it or muck.. turn over your hand." and it'd go nowhere.
No need to stall. The dealer should take care of it immediately.
And the dealer should NOT say "turn over your hand", one player to a hand please.

As soon as the action is finished on the river I say "who's got the winner".
If no one shows in 2 seconds I go to the bettor and say, "you've been called, show or muck".
If he doesn't act in 2 seconds I call the floor. (I've never had to call the floor on this).
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:16 PM   #49
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Talking Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I am a bit sarcastic so I say stuff like this " Sir let me educate you, if someone calls you, you have to show your cards first, I understand if you don't know all the rules but that is one you need to learn to follow. Now show your cards J.O"
you better get ready to duck if they take a swing
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:58 PM   #50
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I occasionally make the 3-hour drive to a B+M casino, specifically to avoid the crap that happens at my local home games such as in OP's scenario, string bets, table talk, one man to a hand, etc.

I expect the dealer to enforce these rules and keep the game moving.

I called the bet, the original bettor needs to show his hand or muck.
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Old 01-21-2008, 02:25 PM   #51
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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You are making a big deal out of nothing, especially at these limits.

However, I think if you want to get your point across in the least offensive way possible then just wait. The other player must show first (assuming he doesn't just fold). If after 5-10 seconds, which is an eternity, the dealer hasn't instructed your opponent to show his hand then I would ask the dealer why said player hasn't acted yet. If the dealer vaguely instructs "players" to turn up their hands then still wait, as it is still on your opponent to show first.

Keep in mind that most players at these levels are just trying to have some fun and are not the most experienced group. IF you come across as the table jerk you're going to scare away all the easy money.

If I feel the person is trying to slide by, I wait him out. If he's not, I might go first. Generally, I wait.
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:20 PM   #52
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Just sit there and wait, with your card protector on your cards. If he says "Whatchu got?" just say "I called you, whatchu got?". Most people at the table will be annoyed that this is slowing down the game and the offender usually gets it. I wouldn't say anything about the floor. Just sit there patiently and wait, until he gets it. What he is supposed to "get" is that you understand the rules and you're going to play by them and he's not going to get any free information without giving you what you paid to see. Nothing "hardball" on your part.
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:22 PM   #53
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Once again, to those who are so hung up on the "proper" order... YOU are the person holding up the game. It takes two to tango. The other person may also be holding it up, but by playing that "no YOU show first" game, you're culpable.
I disagree. If he bluffed, I want to see the cards that he played in the manner he did. If he doesn't want to show, he can muck. Nothing mysterious or devious going on here, it's elementary rules of poker.
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:24 PM   #54
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Not sure of your point. I employ strategy precisely to entice opponents into “attempted” bluffs against me. Why would you want to embarrass them into tighter play?
If you're trying to induce bluffs, then don't make him show. If you don't like being bluffed, then make him show. This isn't rocket science.
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:27 PM   #55
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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I'm having a difficult time making any sense of this whatsoever. My head asplode.
It's simple. If you force people to show their bluffs, there's a tendency for them to bluff less often because it's embarrassing to get called and have to show.
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:02 PM   #56
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by pfapfap
Once again, to those who are so hung up on the "proper" order... YOU are the person holding up the game. It takes two to tango. The other person may also be holding it up, but by playing that "no YOU show first" game, you're culpable.
If someone breaks a rule, or the dealer makes a mistake, and I have to call the floor..... am I "holding up the game" or is someone else?

I agree in part with your sentiment, but if someone's playing games in this type of situation ("I'm not showing first"), then I'm going to try to squash it.
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:31 PM   #57
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I've been in Vegas this past weekend and this has been a huge problem in the 1/2 NLHE games. The ones who refuse to show are always younger players who know the rules, and they usually do it against the touristy casual players. In other words, they are constantly angle shooting in order to gain information and doing everything not to give anything away. It's annoying, slows the game down, and scares the fish. It's the dealers' responsibility to enforce the rules in the first instance, but they refuse to do so.
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:32 PM   #58
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by Lottery Larry View Post
If someone breaks a rule, or the dealer makes a mistake, and I have to call the floor..... am I "holding up the game" or is someone else?

I agree in part with your sentiment, but if someone's playing games in this type of situation ("I'm not showing first"), then I'm going to try to squash it.
exactly
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Old 01-22-2008, 02:52 PM   #59
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

In a 2/4 or 3/6 limit game you should look for reasons to show hands at the showdown, especially ones that look completely silly to the uneducated eye. This just gives the loosies confidence that other people play silly hands and makes the nits respect your bets less.

One favorite is when you miss a draw and it checks around four or five handed, slam down your hand like it is a monster and say with authority "jack high" or whatever. It moves things along, and helps with the table image. If you try a scary card river checkraise bluff on the rare opponent that will lay down a good hand (some people love to make laydowns) and are called, turn over the bluff, don't look for reasons not to show. When almost all of your bets are for value, you want people to call you.

These things go a long, long way in covering tight play. The more hands you show, good or bad, the looser it makes you look, more like one of the gang instead of a serious player.

Again, this is in a loose low limit game where almost all information is as good as disinformation to most opponents... It is a silly policy in other contexts.
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Old 01-22-2008, 03:26 PM   #60
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by Elbow Jobertski View Post
In a 2/4 or 3/6 limit game you should look for reasons to show hands at the showdown . . . .
Thanks very much for those thoughts; I'll be sure to share that reasoning with a couple friends of mine that are true n00bs and play only 2/4 LHE when we go to B&M. They definitely play very tight, so I am sure it will help appreciably.

Thanks also to all the others that have shared their thoughts. There's been a lot of interesting discussion on the issue and closely-related issues.

Last edited by Rapini; 01-22-2008 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Extra thoughts.
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