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Old 01-16-2008, 05:51 PM   #16
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

If I am very sure I have the best hand from dynamics etc., I just table it. If I am the least bit uncertain, I just say "show your hand". I've done this several times, and they always immediately (but sheepishly) turn it over.
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Old 01-16-2008, 05:54 PM   #17
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

not sure why there are so many elaborate answers to this. it's so common in low limit games.

all i do is say "open up" to let him know i would like him to table his hand. if he doesn't after a couple seconds, i'll just open up my hand. this usually results in a muck from villain anyway.

now, if it's someone who i really want to gain information on or someone i may not like too much at the table, i'll say "open up" to the borrower and keep my hand face down until i see his hand. normally the dealer takes control of the action to force last aggressor to turn up his hand.
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Old 01-16-2008, 06:01 PM   #18
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

In no-limit with high stakes this is a much more serious issue.

In a 5-5-10 (20 to go) no-limit game about 18 months ago at Artichoke Joes, I raised somewhere with J9 and only this annoying loud gruff aggressive middle-eastern regular guy (pro?) called in the blind position. The flop came J52 rainbow, he checked, and I checked back to trap him. Turn is a blank, and he bet the pot, and I called. River is a Q, and he bet the pot again. I thought for about 15 seconds and called again.

Then he just sat there and said "A-high" without actually mucking his cards. "I got nothing." After about 7 seconds he still isn't releasing his hand. Finally, I table my hand and then he mucked.

I regretted not making him show or muck because the information is so crucial, and there are a bunch of regulars and pros who were playing that game. To this day I regret not forcing him to show or muck.

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Old 01-16-2008, 06:14 PM   #19
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Absolutely wrong! Do NOT table your hand if you called their bet. You are making it easier psychologically for people to bluff you.
Not sure of your point. I employ strategy precisely to entice opponents into “attempted” bluffs against me. Why would you want to embarrass them into tighter play?

As stated by pfapfap….why call if you don’t have positive expectations?
Show your cards and move the game along. I you feel you’ve divulged “secret” information, incorporate it into your play and use it against your opponents.
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Old 01-16-2008, 06:36 PM   #20
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

In a small stakes game, I suggest taking the middle road against most players. After you call, wait one or two seconds to see if the aggressor shows his hand. If he doesn't show, announce your hand - e.g., "pair of threes" or "flush" -- or announce the hand you can beat that you think he might have: "I can beat Ace high."

At a small stakes table, this is typically enough for the opponent to say "You're good" or table their hand. If he indicates that you are good, table your hand and take the pot. If you table and he is lying or he is clearly an angle shooter, never do it again and wait for him to table each time.

IMHO, it really is not worth making an issue of this at a 2/4 or 4/8 game with your typical tourists... keep everyone smiling... you really don't get enough information from seeing the loser's hand and the loser is not good enough to take advantage of knowing your hand.
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Old 01-16-2008, 06:46 PM   #21
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

In almost all cases the player I have called will say "I have nothing" or "I missed" or "A high" or "low pair" in an attempt to not show their hand. I have no problem with showing my hand immediately in these cases when I am ahead because they will have what they say they have 100% of the time. And I don't need to see what kind of garbage they were bluffing with or started with because I have enough info already and I don't want everybody at the table to think it matters to me even if it does... And of course I will be tabling my hand anyway for the win. Note too that in the off chance they misread their hand and are ahead I won't be helping them beat me.

However. There are several players, usually regulars who abuse this and either say nothing with losing hands or actually have a hand and are trying to get me to show first to gain info.

To those who say nothing, who I don't like in the first place, I will say "show your hand or muck it". I like "I called you" better so I may start using that. I do this to piss them off and to show them they can't run over me. If I don't stand up to them - then I will be affected by it because I will feel dominated, taken advantage of, controlled, disrespected, take your pick.

There is one regular, who I like, who induced me to show a hand because he took enough time that I was sure I was good. At which point he slammed down the winner. That will never happen again with him. I told him immediately that what he did was f*cked up and he knows better than that (which he sheepishly admitted). And I will never show my hand until he shows his. I don't care what he declares verbally. He lost the priviledge not to embarass himself. And if he mucks so much the better. He won't see my hand either.

There is no need to call the Floor. Dealers know the rules and will enforce them eventually. It is in their interest to keep the game moving.
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Old 01-16-2008, 07:00 PM   #22
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

If I can put him on a close range I'll typically just flip when I'm calling to keep game moving (mostly regulars in this game), or if it's one of those weird multi-way rivers then I'll just flip to get the mucking/showing going.

Sometimes, though, if I know the player is capable of stalling showdown or slowrolling I'll just say "I'll pay to see it" when calling so there's no doubt I want him to show first. They'll either show or( less often) insta-muck.

But I definitely don't wanna be a show-nit against the habitual river-bluffers, I'll just call and flip every time.
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Old 01-16-2008, 07:50 PM   #23
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Rick View Post
In almost all cases the player I have called will say "I have nothing" or "I missed" or "A high" or "low pair" in an attempt to not show their hand. I have no problem with showing my hand immediately in these cases when I am ahead because they will have what they say they have 100% of the time. And I don't need to see what kind of garbage they were bluffing with or started with because I have enough info already and I don't want everybody at the table to think it matters to me even if it does... And of course I will be tabling my hand anyway for the win. Note too that in the off chance they misread their hand and are ahead I won't be helping them beat me.

However. There are several players, usually regulars who abuse this and either say nothing with losing hands or actually have a hand and are trying to get me to show first to gain info.

To those who say nothing, who I don't like in the first place, I will say "show your hand or muck it". I like "I called you" better so I may start using that. I do this to piss them off and to show them they can't run over me. If I don't stand up to them - then I will be affected by it because I will feel dominated, taken advantage of, controlled, disrespected, take your pick.

There is one regular, who I like, who induced me to show a hand because he took enough time that I was sure I was good. At which point he slammed down the winner. That will never happen again with him. I told him immediately that what he did was f*cked up and he knows better than that (which he sheepishly admitted). And I will never show my hand until he shows his. I don't care what he declares verbally. He lost the priviledge not to embarass himself. And if he mucks so much the better. He won't see my hand either.

There is no need to call the Floor. Dealers know the rules and will enforce them eventually. It is in their interest to keep the game moving.
We have a winner.
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Old 01-16-2008, 08:23 PM   #24
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by bdams19 View Post
"I called you"
At this point the dealer should be telling him "you've been called, show it or muck it".
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Old 01-16-2008, 08:28 PM   #25
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

My approach is to simply turn up my cards. I really don't care if they what I had, and I especially hope that I never find out what they had.
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Old 01-16-2008, 09:32 PM   #26
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

After 3 pages.... This is never an issue when there is a strong dealer at the table and definitely not something to lose sleep over...
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:11 PM   #27
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

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Originally Posted by Masquerade View Post
Absolutely wrong! Do NOT table your hand if you called their bet. You are making it easier psychologically for people to bluff you.
I'm having a difficult time making any sense of this whatsoever. My head asplode.

Care to explain?
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:41 PM   #28
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

If it goes past 10 seconds I tell the dealer that I insist on seeing both hands and then repeat it so he knows I will cause a scene if he does not show both hands.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:03 AM   #29
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

Yeah this is easy.
Etiquette: He says "I have nothing", you show, he mucks. He returns the favor when the spot is reversed.
Then if/when he breaks etiquette, you change it up. Now you say "show or muck" and wait until he does one or the other.

abc.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:41 AM   #30
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Re: I call, villain delays showdown. Advice?

I don't want to make these guys show.
If you make him show it just pisses them off and makes them play better and tighter against you.
I want these guys betting some hopeless bluff on the river.

Besides, the vast majority of the time it is meaningless knowledge you gain - you call with A9o on a AKJ32 board and he mucks - what does it really matter whether he had A5 or two spades or whatever at some random 3-6 game. I would argue that whatever minimally useful knowledge you gain is overshadowed by the amount you lose now that you have shamed the guy into playing better hands against you.
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