Just a question on what you guys think.

Was playing 1/2NL last night. I got about $300 in front of me. V is another reg, who is very LAG, raises almost every hand he play Cb's every flop big & either builds a big stack fast or bust & leaves fairly quickly. He's got about $650

I'm UTG +1 & pick up AQ....raise to $10

get a couple callers & gets to V otb. He's grabs chips & makes a forward motions, stops goes back gets a couple more & raises to $20.....

Now dealer says he can't do that. That he made a forward motion with what he had in his hand & he can only call. He gets pissed, says that no he didn't. That he picked up $15 & saw he only had $15 & went back to get the other $5....floor is called & the rulling is that he can not raise, since he made the forward motion, he has to just call my $10 raise.

He gets even more pissed & stands up to leave, picking up his chips but spilling them all over the table. Floor says OK, but the $10 have to stay in. He says he's not putting anything in & everyone can go screw themselves. Throws his cards down (where I see a 4 flash, lol)....

Now, I had no problem with this, since I know how he plays & it was a main reason I chose to raise to only $10, cause I knew he would probably reraise me & would fire on the flop too.

After he leave I see him arguing outside with the floor & security. A few minutes later he comes back in & I hear him tell the floor "here, you guys are robbing me of $10" with a bill in his hand. A few minutes later floor walks over, asked who won hand & gave me the $10 (I ended up winning with top 2 pr).....

I don't think it was that big of a deal, but V obviously though it was....I was a little disappointed to see him go, since I know I can make money off of him...

So was that the correct rulling? What do you guys think?

Bad ruling imo barring a house rule like a hard and fast betting line. His bet was not completed with the "pump fake". But that may to the reason behind the ruling, to prevent pump fakes.

I rule that the post was overly verbose. Write "I will be endeavor to be concise and to the point on all my future postings in B&M on 2+2 so that I do not waste the time of members who really do wish to help posters but get frustrated by posts that drone on and on with irrelevant details to the pertinent question at hand" 1000 times in a post in BBV.

a. Apparently your casino has a "forward motion" rule. So, he should have not been allowed to go back to his stack for more.

b. If he really had $15 in his hand, many casinos have a "bet and a half" rule saying that if he puts out more than half of a bet extra, it is a (min) raise. If your casino has that rule, then he should have been allowed to raise to $20.

Sounds like a bad ruling to me. Even in places with a betting line, I've never heard of it being enforced with a maximum bet size, only a minimum bet size. i.e. you made forward motion, you have to make a bet of at least what's in your hand. It's no limit, if your haven't stopped making betting motions, you're not done betting.

Agree on all counts. I think a min raise is to $18 though.

They probably told him he would be banned if he didn't pay the $10, which I also think is good.

lol, will do. I apologize.

At least it likely took you longer to type it than me to read it I hope. Anyway, the dealer called the guy on it and then the floor agreed, so I am going to assume it is the house rule there, so yeah, sounds like a good ruling. I really don't know what the issue is other than the fact that this isn't the normal rule in the mojority of rooms.

IMO... Good ruling. Bad rule.

Depends on the house rules.

Did he move just a couple of inches past his stack and come back for more chips? I probably allow the raise.

Or did he reach all the way out into the betting area and then come back?
No raise unless he had half a raise. and the room has the half raise rule.

$5 chips?
If he went back for one more he can raise.
If he went back for two then maybe he can't raise.

Just a stupid rule.

I'd understand the ruling if he pump faked with a single chip because that may lead people to think he's about to call. But with multiple chips in his hand, the worst thing he can do is to make people wonder if he's about to raise or not.

Let the guy raise and avoid a minute long controversy..

Maybe it was a chronic offender? He may be a problem child with the forward motion (forward motion is the rule at Magic City -- the betting line doesn't play -- motion counts):

We had a guy removed from 1/2 the other night because he had $50 in his hand to call a $50 bet -- he started moving it forward out of turn and had it in his hand ready to drop it (and was coincidentally over the line) - - then he pulled it back after seeing the person acting before him call the initial raiser. The dealer told him his call had to stand -- he argued -- claimed it shouldn't play because he never placed the call on the table. Floor confirmed from the dealer and other players that the call had been in motion and told him he had to make the call and had two choices: play his hand or have his hand declared dead -- but that he would be leaving after the hand (he had been causing other problems and was about 10 drinks in for the evening -- and hint to players: when floor gets involved don't start dropping triple barrel F-bombs thinking that will help things).

Meanwhile -- I've never understood what is so difficult about just verbalizing intentions? Why can't most players just learn to say "raise" or "call"? It's easy. It's quick. It saves lots of wasted time arguing with dolts.

yeah, this was at Magic City....boy did he get pissed. Kept yelling that it had already happened twice before with same dealer (ok, so it it's happened twice before, then stop doing it!)

yeah, F-bombs never help your argument.....

You mean "half of a bet extra or more."

There is a difference.

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forward motion rule is to stop angle shooting but just creates more and causes issues all the time. that is why so few places that have good floor dont have the stupid rule.

just learn to act only after all the action has stopped and is on you. then you never get angled or have to worry about what they do.

Oh no doubt. I ALWAYS wait to make my move, be what ever it may be, until I know the action is on my & I'm clear on what the previous action was.

simple to do. but i see the current players turning over their hands out of turn, flipping them over even before there is money in the pot, etc.

in live games that will bite you. in tournament you have a director that can force a player to do things. in a casino all they can do is ask him to leave. and if he is a friend of the houseman, guess who gets the worst of it.

I'm somewhat surprised to see a forward motion rule enforced in this way in a no limit game. Usually no limit games are more lenient about these things. And especially by the dealer.

But in limit games in Southern California, certainly another player in the hand can get a ruling that if you move your chips forward, it's a call or a raise (depending on how many chips you move forward). Doesn't happen that often, but it happens.

I disagree with that. It works fine in limit in Southern California. Most of the time, it only gets enforced when someone makes a motion and causes a cascade of action behind her. And in that situation, it seems to me that enforcement is pretty well justified.

oh yeah, I see that stuff all the time....I see them do all sorts of stuff, even MP holding chips in his hand, over the line waiting for action to get to him to raise & people still limp in. IDK if it's that they don't see that , or aren't paying attention or what.....


But no, I really try to always act in turn, & I usually take a few seconds before I act, whether it's to fold, call or raise.

Crap rule, whatever ruling.

I hate both forward motion and betting line rules. Both create more issues with people trying to angle people who've made honest mistakes than they solve.

I just like the release rule. You cut out your chips and/or push a stack forward, when you release your hands from the chips that's what the bet is.

If they did that like it was played forever then there would be nothing to post about here.