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Old 06-12-2009, 12:23 PM   #31
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

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Originally Posted by redfisher View Post
If they issue a W2G, I owe more than this. Why would I ever consent to giving my SSN? Interest rates are still like 0.1%. The fact that minimal tax is withheld is fine with me.
huh? does not compute. Even if you're in the top tax bracket of 35%, 35% of (winnings less losses) is very very often* gonna be < 28% of gross winnings.

and not sure what interest rates have anything to do with this.

* yes, sometimes high volume players run into Sch. A limitations on deducting losses, but still
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:40 PM   #32
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

It isn't that much of a hassle to do back up withholding on someone that does not have or will not give their social security number. If you are in a smaller room where they have never done this there will be a delay while they get someone form the cage that has more experience with the tax paper work.
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Old 06-12-2009, 02:08 PM   #33
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

Just tell the casino employees to read the W2-G instructions. It's all spelled out. If the patron doesn't provide an SSN, they are to take 28%. No fuss, no muss. BUT...

You may run headlong into the casino currency transaction report requirements and the suspicious activity reports. If they hand you $5000, they are supposed to know who you are. They only have to report when you move more than $10000 in a day, but they are supposed to track $3000 or more. If you refuse to provide an SSN, and they are about to hand you >$5000, I'd think that could get some overzealous manager to start thinking something pretty odd is afoot. I believe they can require your name+address and proof of age, so from that they can fill out a complete FinCEN 102 form and ring the alarm bells at Treasury.

In OP's case, he should be fine. He's going to pay his taxes all legal and proper, so when the IRS comes knocking asking him to explain the SAR, he can simply say to them what he said to us... he didn't trust a casino with his SSN, pull out his gambling log, point at the taxes he paid, and hopefully they'll go away happy.

For some interesting browsing check out: http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/...AQs_Final.html

Don't give a fake SSN on the W2-G. Right there above the signature line is: "Under penalties of perjury, I declare that, to the best of my knowledge and belief, the name, address, and taxpayer identification number that I have furnished correctly identify me..." Falsifying a federal document is a dumb way to get in trouble.
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Old 06-12-2009, 02:23 PM   #34
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

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Just tell the casino employees to read the W2-G instructions. It's all spelled out. If the patron doesn't provide an SSN, they are to take 28%. No fuss, no muss. BUT...

You may run headlong into the casino currency transaction report requirements and the suspicious activity reports. If they hand you $5000, they are supposed to know who you are. They only have to report when you move more than $10000 in a day, but they are supposed to track $3000 or more. If you refuse to provide an SSN, and they are about to hand you >$5000, I'd think that could get some overzealous manager to start thinking something pretty odd is afoot. I believe they can require your name+address and proof of age, so from that they can fill out a complete FinCEN 102 form and ring the alarm bells at Treasury.

In OP's case, he should be fine. He's going to pay his taxes all legal and proper, so when the IRS comes knocking asking him to explain the SAR, he can simply say to them what he said to us... he didn't trust a casino with his SSN, pull out his gambling log, point at the taxes he paid, and hopefully they'll go away happy.

For some interesting browsing check out: http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/...AQs_Final.html

Don't give a fake SSN on the W2-G. Right there above the signature line is: "Under penalties of perjury, I declare that, to the best of my knowledge and belief, the name, address, and taxpayer identification number that I have furnished correctly identify me..." Falsifying a federal document is a dumb way to get in trouble.
They are going to do the MTL since it is above $3k. They may or may not do an SAR. Every casino has procedures for the MTL when a patron refuses to give his SS. If you cash over $10k they won't be completing the transaction until your properly identify yourself. I don't know what happens when a refusal has money due, I know if you are attempting to buy chips or cash chips you aren't allowed to until you properly identify yourself. I don't know that you have to give your SS number, but you have to identify yourself so they can fill out the CTR.
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Old 06-12-2009, 02:33 PM   #35
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

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So he woke up one morning and didn't know who he was?


because thats what identity theft is the theft of your identity. Which would mean you no longer have your identity. This doe snot happen, though it would be a cool plot for a movie.
Cute. But the Federal Trade Commission disagrees with you.

"Identity theft occurs when someone uses your personally identifying information, like your name, Social Security number, or credit card number, without your permission, to commit fraud or other crimes."
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Old 06-12-2009, 02:51 PM   #36
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

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They are going to do the MTL since it is above $3k. They may or may not do an SAR.
My guess (and it's only a guess) is you'd have to draw a really unlucky short straw to get SAR'd. No ordinary poker room manager is going to want to futz with that. But get somebody in a bad mood and present some attitude and he may do it just to torture you.
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Old 06-12-2009, 03:39 PM   #37
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

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My guess (and it's only a guess) is you'd have to draw a really unlucky short straw to get SAR'd. No ordinary poker room manager is going to want to futz with that. But get somebody in a bad mood and present some attitude and he may do it just to torture you.
Will somebody acting indignant about their constitutional rights and fearing casino employees will steal his identity be considered "presenting some attitude"?
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Old 06-12-2009, 03:48 PM   #38
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

If I want to get paid my prize money I give it up, not only that, I let them make a copy of my driver's license too...
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:34 PM   #39
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

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Will somebody acting indignant about their constitutional rights and fearing casino employees will steal his identity be considered "presenting some attitude"?
"Acting indignant" does seem to strike close to "presenting some attitude". But there's no reason to speculate about who might or might not get ticked off enough to do a SAR... I don't know. Nobody here knows. The closest you might expect is a casino suit stating "I have done an SAR for this" or "I have never done an SAR for this". Doesn't mean someone else will or won't. The casino can (and is required to) fill out an SAR when they think something fishy MIGHT be going on. But fairly few casino SARs are actually filed annually so I think the odds are stacked hugely in your favor. And my own personal belief is that politely declining to provide your SSN and politely explaining that you know they will have to withhold 28% is more likely to avoid the SAR than being indignant.

And I'm not quite seeing the Constitutional issue involved here. You want to be paid your moneys. The government gets to tax your moneys. To do that fairly, they gotta know who you are.

I'm not fond of the situation (I do pay my ACLU dues annually). But ranting to a casino employee just trying to do his job and follow the rules spelled out by the Feds isn't going to fix things.
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:41 PM   #40
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

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So he woke up one morning and didn't know who he was?


because thats what identity theft is the theft of your identity. Which would mean you no longer have your identity. This doe snot happen, though it would be a cool plot for a movie.
Maybe you should know wtf you are talking about before you make statements about what identity theft is.
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Old 06-12-2009, 05:19 PM   #41
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

I had my identity stolen once. My credit score went up 50 points.
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Old 06-12-2009, 06:21 PM   #42
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

There are practical reasons why a player might want to be voluntarily withheld. You can always voluntarily withhold an amount larger than 28%, in fact you can have the entire amount withheld. If a player was scheduled to make an estimated payment soon anyway, they could just voluntarily increase the amount withheld from their jackpot. This is +EV because they save a stamp. And yes, they should be able to decline to give their social (or tax id).

Management just messed up if they said he couldn't.

No tin foil hats/constitutional rights/global warming debate needed. In fact people who a) don't understand the difference between withholding and paying taxes, b) thing the tax is "illegal", c) don't understand that OP had a simple question, which has a simple answer, and c) believe just seeing the word 'taxes' makes it ok to spew their brand of religion/politics/idiocy drive me nuts. The answer is yes, he should have been able to do that.

The answer to the riddle is when you get withheld you get a receipt. That receipt is your assurance that you will get credit for the withholding payment. This has nothing to do with taxes, per se. And again, you already know how this works. It is exactly the same as the deposit receipt you get at a bank.

Thread over ?
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:43 PM   #43
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

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If I want to get paid my prize money I give it up, not only that, I let them make a copy of my driver's license too...
Yea, but you probably don't have any outstanding warrents or judgements and probably don't owe back child support.

Not that I'm saying the OP does... Nope, I didn't say that ...
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:08 PM   #44
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

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Is this a federal law? Does every casino have to comply with this? I would have no problem letting them withhold 28% if it meant I did not have to give them my SSN
Yes
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:09 PM   #45
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Re: Do you HAVE TO give your social security number to a casino when given a W2G?

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Yea, but you probably don't have any outstanding warrents or judgements and probably don't owe back child support.

Not that I'm saying the OP does... Nope, I didn't say that ...
The reason they request your license is because they are filing it in their computer database for company records. These records are there to track incoming and outgoing money and account for where it's coming from in conjunction with the treasury department. It's basically a tool to catch launderers and other illegal activities that result in money that is illegal.
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