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04-20-2014 , 02:09 PM

chuckb223

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 490

I would like some input on what you think should happen here. I will let you know the Floors ruling after there are some comments.

Two players are left in the pot and Dealer mistakenly burns two cards and deals river. Both players catch this and stop the action. The two cards she burned are still identifiable but it can not be determined which one came off the deck first or second. So there is no way to tell which is the actual burn card and which would have been the river card.

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04-20-2014 , 02:16 PM

The Big K

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,371

Ruling KITN to the dealer.

I'm confused as why the burn and the actual river could not be identified. If it was because the cards stuck together, then the top is the burn and bottom is the river. If he burned, got distracted and burned again, it should be very easy to know which is which. But if they can't be identified, imo, leave the board as it stands. Although I guess a case be made for the floor to random select on of the two burn card to use as the river but I don't like thi solution..

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04-20-2014 , 03:31 PM

chuckb223

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 490

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big K

It all happened kind of quick and the dealer had started to fumble with the two cards once she realized what she did. No one at the table was able to tell which one she had burned first or second.

As a side note, you also have the river card she dealt out there too which could affect a players hand.

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04-20-2014 , 04:07 PM

The Big K

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,371

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckb223

As a side note, you also have the river card she dealt out there too which could affect a players hand.

Since the cards cannot be told apart, that's is the main reason for my opinion that the board should stand as dealt.

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04-20-2014 , 05:37 PM

venice10

Referee

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 25,849

RRoP doesn't really cover this situation. It is expected the dealer will know which card came out first in the rules. The closest I can find that would cover this is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roberts Rules of Poker

4. If the dealer failed to burn a card before dealing the flop, or burned two cards, the error should be rectified by using the proper burncard and flop, if no boardcards were exposed. The deck must be reshuffled if any boardcards were exposed.

I can see a rules nit arguing that this only covers the flop. I'd say this should also cover action on the turn and river, so the procedure is to shuffle the river card and the burn cards back into the stub and re-deal the burn card and river. In practice, you're going to be at the mercy of whatever the floor decides is fair. I wouldn't expect any consistency in the vast majority of rooms in this situation. This is a pretty rare occurrence at best.

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04-20-2014 , 05:43 PM

chuckb223

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 490

Quote:

Originally Posted by venice10

RRoP doesn't really cover this situation. It is expected the dealer will know which card came out first in the rules. The closest I can find that would cover this is:

I can see a rules nit arguing that this only covers the flop. I'd say this should also cover action on the turn and river, so the procedure is to shuffle the river card and the burn cards back into the stub and re-deal the burn card and river. In practice, you're going to be at the mercy of whatever the floor decides is fair. I wouldn't expect any consistency in the vast majority of rooms in this situation. This is a pretty rare occurrence at best.

This is what I mentioned to the floor twice. That the 3 cards should be put back in the stub and reshuffled and deal a new burn and river. He totally ignored it both times.

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04-20-2014 , 05:50 PM

Suit

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 4,744

Since there was no action on the card that was dealt as the river, I would bring it back and pick one of the two cards that were burnt and make it the river card.

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04-20-2014 , 05:57 PM

venice10

Referee

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 25,849

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suit

Since there was no action on the card that was dealt as the river, I would bring it back and pick one of the two cards that were burnt and make it the river card.

That's reasonable, but I'd make damn sure that the other card was completely buried and unidentifiable before flipping the river card over. The last thing you want is the loser of the hand demanding to see the other card and finding out he would have won. Then all hell will break loose.

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04-20-2014 , 09:08 PM

bundy5

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 8,136

I would have thought that the deck gets reshuffled (including the river card that was exposed but not the two burn cards) and then the dealer cuts the deck and deals the river card without burning a card.

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04-20-2014 , 11:16 PM

#10

JDiamond364

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,205

Definitely kitn to the dealer. Not for burning 2 cards, mistakes happen, but for fumbling around with them. As soon as the dealer notices the mistake, she should freeze, touch nothing and call the floor.

As for the ruling, I like what Suit said. You know the river should be one of those 2 cards. Scramble them and pick one at random like a 4 card flop.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using 2+2 Forums

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04-21-2014 , 08:02 AM

#11

Fizzgibble

enthusiast

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 87

Put them both out, treat it as a run it twice.

Was there still action pending on the river?

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04-21-2014 , 08:52 AM

#12

BigBlue56

veteran

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 2,963

I can live with mixing the 2 and having the floor pick one randomly. +1 to burying the other deep in the muck.

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04-21-2014 , 01:58 PM

#13

Suit

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 4,744

Quote:

Originally Posted by venice10

I'd make damn sure that the other card was completely buried and unidentifiable before flipping the river card over.

Good point. I like this.

And yes, it's basically like a 4 card flop.

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04-21-2014 , 02:41 PM

#14

chuckb223

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 490

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fizzgibble

Put them both out, treat it as a run it twice.

Was there still action pending on the river?

Yes action was still peding on the river.

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04-21-2014 , 02:43 PM

#15

chuckb223

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 490

What the floor ultimately decided to do was end the hand and Chop the Pot between the two players. Neither player was too happy about it but they figured it was better than losing money because of the dealers screw up.

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04-21-2014 , 03:04 PM

#16

allin4flush

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 510

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckb223

What the floor ultimately decided to do was end the hand and Chop the Pot between the two players.

I love these threads where there are a number of reasonable alternatives offered, and the in the end the Floor actually ended up doing something far worse than anything any of us could have come up with.

Personally I think Venice10's post regarding the rules is the best approach, shuffle the river and two burns, then burn and deal a new river.

Before reading that, my ruling would have been to leave the existing river stand.

Suit's idea of randomly selecting the river from the two burn cards is a good one too.

Chopping the pot and declaring the hand over? Does this belong in the home game subforum?

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04-21-2014 , 03:09 PM

#17

chuckb223

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 490

Yes I agree and I told him that it was a horrible decision and I just let it end there. Especially since he didn't even acknowledge me when I said to him twice that the two burns and river should get shuffled back in the stub and re-dealt. I wasn't in the hand so I wasn't gonna push it any further.

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04-21-2014 , 03:10 PM

#18

Suit

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 4,744

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckb223

What the floor ultimately decided to do was end the hand and Chop the Pot.

That rule has to be in here somewhere...

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04-21-2014 , 03:18 PM

#19

Jake Stanton

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 437

if the deck can't be recovered then the remaining cards (including the 2 burn cards) should be reshuffled.

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