Just a simple question: I know there are a thousand other factors more important than this one in every game we play, but I'd just the "mathematical" answer if it is known. I play in 2-5 or 3-5 blind NL games in LA, $300 buy in. When you miss your big blind in these games, you are allowed to "buy the button" by posting both blinds in the small blind position. You then get the button for free on the next turn.

Alternatively, you can wait till the button passes you, and post both blinds in the cutoff position.

Which option is better in a 9-handed game independent of any knowledge you may have about your opponents? Has this been worked out by anyone?

As a corollary, is the info out there as to what your equity is predeal in each seat? For example, if the blinds are 3-5, might your equity on the button predeal be something like +$2, and your equity in the BB be something like -$2? Thanks, everybody.

Posting more money in the worst absolute position at the table vs the second best absolute position at the table can't be good, can it?

I guess it can if having your button the next hand allows you to recoup the marginal adittional -EV of playing your SB OOP for more money.

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, that is exactly the question: do you recoup enough for getting your money in bad in the SB by being able to play both the button and the cutoff for free?

That combo has to be compared with posting in the cutoff -- which of course must negative EV as well: even though you are playing from the second best position on the table for that hand, you are making a blind bet!

seems unlikely that either of these is more profitable than wait for bb

stop being such a nit

you're getting 2 extra hands for the same price one of which is the button

depends on the game. Some games even if u post behind its 10 handed and prob getting raised like 4-5x so doesn't matter much. Some games its limped a lot. U lose the button + an UTG hand if u post behind and button has to be worth like .1-.2bbs or something crazy high. Plus sitting there waiting is just bad for image/game.

Post 5 hits the nail on the head. You're going to have to pay it anyway unless you're waiting an entire orbit for the BB. I think you should post from the SB so you get more hands in position. You'll be getting the button AND the cutoff 'for free'.

The more I think about it the more I think this question depends on the game line up and your expectation from co, btn, and sb in that line-up. Compound that with the rarity with which it will happen compared to your overall sample of hands it probably really doesn't matter much in the overall grand scheme of your winrate.

I will say though I think even making a larger blind bet from the CO is going to be more +EV than making a slightly larger than normal blind bet from the sb.

Edit: Oh and I agree if we're comparing posting SB, posting CO, AND wait for BB then waiting for BB is most likely going to be the best option, barring some contrived scenario involving specific game conditions.

Thanks, everybody. Interesting answers, though I guess no concensus ... and I do agree that it's a nitty question.

Given that admission, you could "calculate" the answer if you knew (through statistics) the EV of each position at the table ... for example, with blinds (let's say $5-$5) posted, what is your predeal expectation on the button? In the cutoff? If you are BB? If you are SB?
Seems to me someone must have researched this and published these numbers somewhere ... Does anybody know?

If you're going to take a mathematical approach, this question is better addressed by the Poker Theory Forum. I think you've gotten good answers here, but for a more mathematical approach I'd re-ask there.

I can't decide if I'm remembering things wrong or if I just never paid attention or something, but I can't for the life of me remember anyone buying the button from the small blind position. What I distinctly remember is people coming in on the button and being given the option to buy the button by posting a dead small blind and a live big blind, or given the option to sit out until the big blind comes around to them.

Re Rapini: Thanks, I am a newcomer here and did not know about the Poker Theory forum. I'll try my luck there.

Re mrmr: Don't know if I stated this misleadingly to start: In the LA clubs (I play at Hustler and Hawaiian Gardens) when you buy the button, you do it from the small blind position by posting both big and small blinds. (1) on that hand the big blind position does not post at all, and (2) you do not need to "complete" the small blind to play the hand. I guess this is what you mean by the small blind being dead? At any rate, you do not own the button until the next hand.

No problem. Welcome to the forum!

The way you describe buying the button is standard in every room in which I've played iirc.

In order to buy the button you have to be between the button and the small blind. If you sit down and the button is in your spot then you can only post behind the button or wait for the big blind to come back around to you, you can't sit down and assume the button by posting/buying.

In LHE, buying the button and posting from the CO are approximately equal and both are significantly worse than waiting for your natural BB.

For NL, then, because the blinds are smaller relative to the action, posting from the CO should be advantageous over buying the button but whether it's better than waiting for the natural BB is unknown.

I'm a limitard so I don't have a database to analyze NL hands but the methodology is straightforward. What you need are the following numbers:

1. EV(BB) when SB folds
2. Win%(BB) when SB folds
3a. EV(CO) when posting BB
3b. Win%(CO) when posting
3. EV(CO) when posting BB+SB
4. EV(BTN) excluding any posting
5. EV(CO) excluding any posting
6. EV(BB) excluding any posting
7. EV(SB) excluding any posting
8. EV of everything else, posting or not.

Buying the button has a total EV of
(1) + (2)*SB + (4) + (5)

Posting the CO has a total EV of
(3a) + (3b)*SB + (8), or
(3) + (8)

Waiting for your natural BB has a total EV of
(6) + (7) + (8)

This is the best post in the thread, and very much correct

If you'd like to bet on this, Ill buy the button every hand and you can book my action as big as you want. I think your vastly underestimating how much you lose not playing the 6 or 7 free hands while waiting for your natural big blind (especially in time time games that are rake free hands). This is of course assuming that one actually wins at poker. If you're bad, then sure wait for bb.

Let me correct you .... you do not buy the button from the SB position. You buy the button from between the button and the SB.

Not sure about buying the button or posting from the cutoff. Of course in a 1 hand situation you would want to be on the cutoff, but by buying the button you get to play the blind, the button, and the cutoff for the same price as waiting and then posting in the cutoff.

I would definitely buy the button instead of waiting for the BB though. Even if you posting is equal to -0.50BB (seems hard to do) you still get to play 7 hands prior to the BB hitting you. If you are a winning player you will make that back I would imagine over those 7 hands. At a 1-2 game if your win rate is $15.00/hr and you are getting 30 hands per hour you are making $0.50 per hand. In this case you would expect to make $3.50 over the next 7 hands, thus making $2.50 by buying the button as opposed to waiting for the BB even if you are going to lose the extra dead $1.00 100% of the time, which I doubt would happen if you are a winning player.

If you post in the CO you are paying for 7 hands at a 10 handed table. If you buy the button you are paying the same amount for 9 hands. Assuming you are a winning player buying the button is much better. If you have an expectation to win X dollars over Y hands the higher Y is the more money you make.

You're confusing EV and WR.

You're doing it wrong. Waiting for the BB should be taken as EV=0. You're not playing any hands, so you neither win nor lose.

You're right that I did it wrong, but you're wrong for the reason Jon Locke pointed out - waiting costs you money if you're a winner. So waiting for the BB is EV 0, WR < WR(0). (8) should be added to the buy scenario and not in the natural scenario. And the natural scenario should not have BB and SB included.

The bottom line is that in LHE it doesn't matter much from an EV perspective whether you buy or post behind if you are forced to choose between the two. From a WR perspective, most people prefer to play so pick the one that puts the cards in front of them faster. The deltaEV of playing in position is offset by the loss of EV(BTN).

And if you have to piss and miss a (LHE) hand, leave after you fold UTG+1 and miss your UTG hand so that you play your natural BB, because missing your natural BB forces you to buy, post, or wait, each of which is bad.

no but you sit there like a dildo for 15 minutes waiting for those 7 hands. if you're good at poker and you're at a poker table that 15 mins would be better used playing poker.
addtionally you're letting the entire table know you're a huge god damb nit.

Definitely +1 on buying it in a full or mostly full time game. Missing 7-8minutes is costing you money. You also look really bad if sit in co and sit waiting.

I wouldn't post more than 1 off button I'd step away go say hi to someone.. yada yada.

In a rake game I might buy it in limit, or I'd time my walk a little better and come back when its closer to my bb.

In nl I'd buy it, or post more liberally from behind, or straddle to come in. Anything to look more gambley.


If the question is only post co or buy it.. you 100% should buy it. Getting button n co for free is worth the money going up front.

Only if you sit at the table like a god damn nit.

Most people have stuff to do - call their wives to lie about what time they'll be home, or check their trust funds to make sure they haven't been cut off, or flirt with the hot new waitress.

Go do that until it's your BB.

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As a thought experiment, what would you do if you came back and missed the CO? Post in the HJ? If yes, then the LJ?

At some point (UTG?), you will decide to sit around rather than post. And everyone who would not have waited will call you a nit and everyone who would have waited will think you suck.