Cliffnotes at bottom

THe state of Florida, as most of you know spreads up to 5-10 nl but is capped at a $100 buy in, odd I know, but thats the current law. The seminole tribe runs two Hard Rock casinos, one in Ft.lauderdale the other in Tampa, I guess you can consider these the flagship casinos of Florida. Though they still have to abide to the $100 cap rule for poker they are the only casinos in Fl to offer BJ and roulette. There are restaurants, boutique shops, concert venues, overall the Hardrocks represent a small watered down version of say the Trop in AC, which is not a bad thing.

Aside from the two hardrocks there are a plethora of small local poker rooms. These poker rooms are usually adjacent to a horse racing, harness racing or dog tracks. These local places may or may not have slot machines and clearly are lower scale than their Hard Rock counterparts. Not to sound snobby but the crowd at these places is what you would expect.

I usually play online but enjoy playing live about 10x per year. The bulk of my play has been in either AC or Vegas. Having just moved to Florida May was my first experience at one of these local casinos. Fifteen minutes away from me in Pompano is the Isle of Capri casino offering Harness racing, Slots, and poker. THe casino itself has been renovated and is actually pretty decent looking, though the crowd for the most part is made of few tourists and mostly local regulars who play poker (and prob the slots) 3-5x week.

I like playing live in Vegas and to AC because I enjoy the social aspect of the game. BSing with the guys next to me while playing meaningless stakes is not a bad way to kill a few hours. So when I go to a poker table Im the guy who will make small talk and laugh with good nature as a fish calls my allin and cracks my AA with J9ss. I know what Im getting myself into playing in these types of card games and Im fine with it.

So when I first tried the Isle of Capri in Pompano I went with the frame of mind that fun is more important than winning. With a 35% vig (rake+expected tip) in their stt's and mtt's , fun better be the priority.

My first experience was in May to play an MTT. The mtt filled up, 100 people, before I got there so I played a $125 stt. I see that 6 of the 10 players are making conversation before play starts, talking about "You see Bobby's big score the other night?" or "You playing the multi tomorrow?" etc...Clearly these were the local regulars who share a social/degen relationship with one another. And they are all friendly with the dealers and floor who refer to them by name. Nothing atypical here for a local place, again something I expect and fine with.

There was stuff that was borderline collusion like announcing their hands when in a pot. Softplaying, you know when to locals get into a pot together and they want to check it down, so they will continuously tap the table even before the community cards are revealed. There was one thing that I couldnt hold my tongue for. When were down to about 5 people and the blinds were high, a regular utg pushes his stack in and it gets folded to the BB. The BB another reg starts to deliberate, during this time utg starts saying "I have a good hand" over and over. As BB is still thinking, utg has both of his cards on the table infront of him and places one hand over each card. He then starts to lift his hands a few inches off the table with the cards stuck to his palms. Even from my seat on the other side of the table i could see he had A9.THe dealer is watching him do this but says nothing.

Frustrated I say, "Dealer you see what he's doing, you know that is not right"
Dealer doesnt say anything.

UTG says, "Im not doing anything wrong."

I say, "You know you are, youre clearly exposing your hole cards beacuse you dont want a call.Now dealer what are you going to do about it?"

Dealer finally says, "Tim you have to keep your cards covered."

BB finally calls with KK.

The next time I went was in early July. I learned from last time and got there early, brought and Ipod, and a little weed. Aftrer registering for the $150 mtt + a $10 add-on, so out of my $160,$40 is rake, I went back to the car and smoked up. Nicely toasted I went to the table saw the expected banter of the local regulars before the action started, and put on my headphones. So I sat there for 3 hours listening to the Grateful Dead and taking advantage of the incredibly passive play. At the bubble I was in top 10 in chips but it was push fold time so anything could happen. Chipleader, a local, was at my table along with 5 other regulars, one being a shortie immediately to chipleaders left. CL was playing maybe 60% of his hands, but for some reason found a fold 4x in 4 orbits in the SB to shorties BB. CL also folded for the last 5000 in a 30,000 pot to another regular. I didnt say anything and vowed I wouldnt come back. I finished in 7th and netted $500.

Because Im writing now, I obviously did return. Last night I played their $150 mtt. Same drill early registration, smoke it up, sit at table with bunch of regs, with the normal pre-tourney chat. I say hello to the guys around me, get grunts, and put on the headphones.

First hand I get 99 utg at 25-50, I raise it 250 (8000 starting stack) 3 other come along including utg+1. Flop is 742 rainbow, I bet out 600, utg+1 calls. TUrn is 5, I bet 1000 utg+1 calls. River is a 3, check, check. He turns over 55 for the set and the hand. I muck my cards.

He says, " Dealer I want to see those." Then turns to me, "I want to see what you were betting with."

I say, "Youre not supposed to be asking to see the card for that reason."

Dealer flips my 99 and says," He's allowed to see the cards at any time."

Again I explain, "That is not why the rule is there. Its to protect against collusion, what he is doing is a bit of an angleshoot."

Then the 2 regualrs on my right chime in. "Anybody can ask to see your acards at any time." says one.

"At the wsop in vegas they ask to see the cards, that s the rule", says the other.

Then the utg+1 guy says, "I can see your cards whenever I want. I wantred to see what you were betting with."

I realized I should try to put an end to this. I turn to the dealer and ask him to call the floor.

Dealer says, "Thats the rule, youre wrong."

I say, "Call the floor please."

Dealer, "Thats the rule, he's not going to say its different."

Starting to get aggrevated, "I want to speak to the floor."

Dealer, "You CANT speak to the floor."

"Your telling me I cant speak to the floor?"

Dealer hesitates then he looks at utg+1 and says, "Sorry ROb." Gives me a dirty look and finally yells, "Floor!"

Floor comes over and the dealer starts to talk, then utg+1 starts to talk.

I finally say, "I called the floor, you guys mind?"

They both quieted down and the floor came over to stand behind and between myself and utg+1.

I asked, "Are players allowed to ask to see hole cards to gain information?"

Floor says, "THe rule says the player has a right to see your hole cards if it goes to showdown."

I reply, "But are players allowed to ask to see the cards solely to gain information. Or is it to prevent colluding?"

Utg+1 starts to explain the hand, I cut him off and repeat to the floor.

"Is it a rule to prevent colluding or to gain information?"

Figuring out that it was the regular that asked to see the cards he repeats, " A person can ask to see cards at anytime after showdown."

"SO youre telling me, as the floor here, that a player has the right to ask to see my mucked cards to gain information whenever he like?"

He recanted a bit and said, "It is a "privilege" to see the cards."

With that the floor walked away. I was seen as the interloper who dared to disturb the status quo and the self made rules governing "their" game. I then realized who was I to interfere. I am basically a guest at someones home game, and if I dont like the rules or the company, I dont have to play. THis made it easier to digest how bad the floors ruling was. I mean he sees these guys everyday, and on some level he is expected to get their backs. Im sure these things go on in most local card rooms across the country. I for one will not be returning. Im sure they dont mind as the room is usually packed and my play is significantly better than most.

Cliffnotes

Isle of Capri in Pompano is infested with local regulars. Too much of you against the locals+dealers+floor mentality. I wont be back.

Standard... welcome to Florida, BTW

fyp

I have played at several poker rooms all over Florida...I hate to say the Isle is one of the nicest...beautiful tables...on the second floor away from all the slots and other distractions...that being said...it is a heavily populated "locals" room...little bit of demographic info for you guys...
Within a 5 mile radius of that casino you have some of the original retirement communities Florida became famous for...Palm Aire, Wynmoor, John Knox Village..etc...they have daily FREE shuttles to and from these places...

My suggestion...know going in you are going to get softplayed & slightly colluded against..counter this by limping into every pot and min bet to death...you will get paid off with top pair as their flush draw expires on the river..etc..

Stick to the $1/2 limit game and you can easily grind about $18-$25 per hour and enjoy the social bs'ing.

I agree that you have to know this going in. I found being aggressive and raising over the limpers is the best strategy. Theyre freakishly loose/passive and easy to read.Besides in a tournament theyre losing crazy EV by not getting the most value for their hands, but I dont think they realize that.

That said ,I didnt post to show that this was unfair. I know softplaying and indirect collusion go on. My problem is when you get called out on something that is blatant like, showing hands, direct collusion like folding hands in big pots getting like 10-1, or angleshooting the "see the mucked hand rule", own up to it. Don't have you, your three colleagues at my end of the table, the dealer and the floor tell me Im wrong. At this point it's about not feeling comfortable in what should be a relaxed environment. So thats my last trip there.

Exposing hands in a tourney: it's bad, and you were right to say something.

Insisting for the floor: Very good for you for standing up for yourself on this one. No dealer should ever refuse a floor request, and I like how you took control to be the one to talk to him.

Whining about IWTSTH: Well, now you're just asking for the bullies to beat you up in the sandbox. My understanding from reading posts by seasoned veterans, people who have been playing this game in casinos for 20 years, is that this whole "collusion" interpretation of IWTSTH is a relatively recent one. Back in the day, it was for information. So don't sweat it. Whatever you think the intent is, that's not the intent of those requesting it, and they're not accusing you of cheating. Lighten up, Francis.

Pfapfap,

I know they werent thinking I was cheating. The point is it go against the spirit of the rule, and the spirit of th game. This game is predicated on deceiving your opponent. The one that does a better job has an edge. The rule was created to curtail colluding. If your going to use it a loophole to help your game then that is an angleshoot and Im going to call you out on it every time.

By whose interpretation? There have been many conversations on here lately, involving people who have been playing far longer than I have, indicating that this common modern interpretation is not the spirit of the rule, that it has historically been to gain information.

With that in mind, how does your view change on this?

Then I guess you should have done a better job before you got to the point in the hand where it was perfectly reasonable and within the rules for him to see your cards. To whine about it after the fact is just pouting over frustration with yourself that you weren't good enough to avoid showdown.

Cite?

Seriously, here, I'd like to know. This is a long-standing discussion, and if you have some hard and fast evidence of the purpose of this rule, I think most of us here would be relieved to see it.

Well, then you're setting yourself up for more frustration. I can't imagine how this is helpful for your state of mind. Me, I'd rather just laugh over it and move onto the next hand with a clear head and no enemies at the table.

It would make no sense for the rule being established to aid people in getting information. If you can not understand why, then you really have no business posting about poker.

Why, as the aggressor in this hand, do you feel that you should not show your hand?

Check out an old According to Hoyle.

Everyone was required to turn their hand over at Showdown. Period.

If you didn't want to show your hand, don't bet or call on the river. (check-check was more problematic). If you bet or called, you were putting a claim on the pot and you were required to show your hand.

Players got away from the rule because they figured losing the pot was enough. 95% of the time the "information" gained by seeing his hand was obvious if you had any talent. So they let the loser muck most of the time. But the 'rule' that you had to show your hand was still there.

And as I have posted before, if you can catch collusion with IWTSTH, you are up against idiots. I had never heard people claim that invoking IWTSTH was the same as charging collusion until recently. And then, on internet forums. Nobody in a casino ever came back with "Are you accusing me of collusion?" when someone wanted to see their losing hand. The just figured the guy asking was being rude.

Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that is eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponents hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing players hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

From ROberts rules. I am wrong, it doesnt say about collusion. It does mention that it is a privilege not be abused but its not what I was saying. I totally disagree with the rule as it takes away from the game. SHowing Im capable of a big bluff when I miss is just so against what the game is about. I wonder what the ruling is in an WSOP event.

why not just try mucking ur cards fast so if the dealer tries to flip them when someone asks, at least maybe they will pick the wrong ones?

I have never had to do this, but if someone ever did this to me id do ^^^^

1) Mike Smith, the Isle's poker room director is a 2p2er, look for him and PM him (I think his user name is "Mike Smith" but I'm not sure)

2) This is pretty standard not only in Florida but in most rooms around the world. I know the rule was created to prevent collusion but that's how it's used now.

3) If you play online you might have noticed that you can see you opponents cards in showdowns when you see the hand history. This is not done to prevent collusion but to gain info so you have the same privilege in a live setting

4) I think you thread's title refers to you interpretation that the Isle gives benefits to the locals while taking advantage of the tourists. This is not true at all because you could've asked to see you opponent's cards every single time too.

Most importantly this thread isnt about that rule, but it is interesting to get clarification on this.

I started the OP because I wanted illustrate that it is uncomfortable to play in an environment where the locals play in the grey area (at best), and dealers and TD's look the other way. Its a lot like a big home game, which is fine, but ill never play there agian.

As one of the regulars at the Isle, I'm sorry to hear your disappointment ...

That being said, I don't find this to be the norm at the Isle. Most of the dealers are very good and the floors are generally very competent.

Yes you will find some of the retirees that play everyday will play it soft, that's life in every room....

I have never seen anything that indicates that the staff shows preferential treatment toward locals, and generally they are very friendly towards everyone...

BTW, if you want collusion, it is my understanding that it is rampant at the HR. I can't say for sure because I never play there....

IMO etiquette is horrible in all rooms simply because people are morons that don't have any respect for the game.

Maybe you should play online at home in your boxers or try a different room

To chime in seriously here... as someone who has played in every South FL room, and almost every room in FL, I will say that in the 5/10 nl games collusion and soft-playing is rampant. From regulars for sure, but also "neighbors" at the table will soft-play each other just to not upset the person sitting next to them. That said, the games are still a joke and are ridiculously easy. Plays like a turbo SNG for the most part.

I never played the 5/10 100 Cap, why would anybody?? However I see your point, the table has alot of the regular degens day in and day out so I'm sure many of them work together under the room's radar

Im sure it is rampant at most places that arent big tourist destinations, because without tourists there are only locals. That said I am in my boixers as Im typing this.

Yeah these guys are clueless and soft for sure. However the money:enjoyment ratio is still too far out of whack.

lol at in your boxers!!

Do you know this? How do you know this? Can you provide a source? I would absolutely love to see this resolved one way or the other.

In re-reading my earlier posts, I did allow my cheekiness to get in the way, and I can see how that was rude. This was not my intent, and I apologize.

By and large I feel you handled yourself well, especially with standing up to the dealer, and trying to stop people from exposing cards. On that last point especially a lot of people feel "I'm not in the hand, not my place," and I'm glad you stood up for procedure.

I also don't like IWTSTH, and I don't support it in my home game. But it does exist in practically every casino, so I don't sweat it when it happens. Show the hand, move on. Those are the rules. And not all casinos follow Robert's, so in some places it may be allowed every time.

For sure, that can suck, and I hope those who play and work there at least consider what you're saying and take a look at how things are. Some in here say it's not like that normally, so maybe you got a bad draw. Sorry you had that experience, I certainly want more people to play in B&M!

But really, relax about IWTSTH. In the words of Tripper Harrison: It just doesn't matter!

Source: Tommy Angelo

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/a...s/angelo05.htm

You're in the wrong here.

This notion that one can only ask to see another player's cards if he suspects collusion is a modern concept, and in fact a popular one at 2+2. But it has nothing to do with the original intent of the rule, and it's contrary to how the rules have operated in practice for the many decades preceding this last one. So you're going to see variation in how it's interpreted and applied.

Although it sounds like there's a bit of shakiness at this card room, you should have selected firmer ground on which to make your stand. Instead, you chose to go bananas on a fragile theory.

Completely wrong, and totally ignorant of history. This interpretation is a modern spin.

Again, you seem well within your rights to question the softplay at this room. But it seems you chose the wrong venue for your battle - a rule that you don't understand.