Why u can or wont make it in the poker world (& Y u should or shouldnt try) 2K POST - Page 9 - Psychology in Poker and Gambling

alefito6804 · 05-24-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruin

qft, since this is clearly a perfect world.

unless you are someone who can't get a real job or career (dropped out of school or w/e), poker is life -EV a large percentage of the time. if you're that smart in the first place then you're better off applying yourself at something more worthwhile.

i dont really understand this kind of posts, you can make SNE by playing 3 hours/day @ nl200-nl400 CAP by breaking even or even losing and making 100k+/year and then use the other 21 hours of the day to w/e you want, i dont really get how is it EV- in life, and in social life..

omnimirage · 05-24-2011, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alefito6804

i dont really understand this kind of posts, you can make SNE by playing 3 hours/day @ nl200-nl400 CAP by breaking even or even losing and making 100k+/year and then use the other 21 hours of the day to w/e you want, i dont really get how is it EV- in life, and in social life..

it takes a lot of hours to get one's game to that level

alefito6804 · 05-24-2011, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pat3392

it takes a lot of hours to get one's game to that level

lol but if you want to make a living off poker then you should be playing those limits.. i mean lol if you wanna making a living off poker out of nl10 then yes you wont have a life nor social life and you wont win much money at all

omnimirage · 05-24-2011, 08:52 PM

i mean lol kid grow up

vektor · 05-24-2011, 09:29 PM

the real problem with poker is the psychological effects constant gambling has on people. Phil Ivey, Tom Dwan, Phil Hellmuth, Daniel Negreanu, Johnny Chan etc. etc. all have mental issues from their life of gambling.

I'd rather have my 9-5 working with my buddy, partying on the weekend while working through university than look like Negreanu or Dwan after a 20 hour losing session. My life's ups are huge, partying with hundreds of people in giant parties. The downs are spending a little too much on a friday or not getting enough sleep on the weekend. That aching depression over months of losing are not worth the physiological strain, life is too short to spend it gambling with degens. I really wish people could just see what I have been through with poker or some of the few enlightened ones in this thread. I wouldn't trade my future for Tom Dwan's. I'll make a great living, have tons of friends, live healthy and eventually have a family; these things just don't mix in the poker world.

alefito6804 · 05-24-2011, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vektor

the real problem with poker is the psychological effects constant gambling has on people. Phil Ivey, Tom Dwan, Phil Hellmuth, Daniel Negreanu, Johnny Chan etc. etc. all have mental issues from their life of gambling.

is that a statement or an assumption? i mean im sure that chan, negreanu, hellmuth, dwan, ivey none of them need to still play poker to have a great life, they dont really need any more money

bruin · 05-24-2011, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alefito6804

i dont really understand this kind of posts, you can make SNE by playing 3 hours/day @ nl200-nl400 CAP by breaking even or even losing and making 100k+/year and then use the other 21 hours of the day to w/e you want, i dont really get how is it EV- in life, and in social life..

dude, the whole point is that if you can win that kind of money at poker through intelligence and work ethic then you can clearly make a lot of money applying yourself at something in the real world. And doing this will almost always be more +EV financially, socially, psychologically etc.

and I don't think those were good examples (Durr, Phil Ivey, etc), but if you look at the vast majority of grinders in their 30s, 40s and 50s, most of them hate life or are psychologically ****ed up in some way. Gambling messes with your sense of work and reward and is associated with many other self-destructive behaviors. You can't keep activating your dopamine all the time without expecting to **** yourself up mentally and psychologically in some way.

Eto Demerzel · 05-24-2011, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruin

unless you are someone who can't get a real job or career (dropped out of school or w/e), poker is life -EV a large percentage of the time. if you're that smart in the first place then you're better off applying yourself at something more worthwhile.

So making at least 3 times more money with the same or less amount of work is -EV? I don't know if you have played poker but you really don't have to be that smart to be good at it.

KlaSuu · 05-24-2011, 11:15 PM

Saying "people who can make 100k+ at poker would be better off doing things in real life, they'd make more money" is a bit like saying "people who are top athletes earning 100k+ would be better off working in the real world, they'd make more money".

Just because poker is a mental skill doesn't mean you could succeed better at something else.

Not to mention, succeeding at something you enjoy and making similiar amounts as to suceeding as something you enjoy less but is "real life" (and wtf is that even supposed to mean ? how is trading the stock market more real life than playing poker) is not the same thing. Some people need to realise that most people who succeed in poker actually enjoy what they do.

canoodles · 05-24-2011, 11:41 PM

You meant $15000/year right? $150000/year at NL200 is 20bb/hour playing 10 hours per day...

vektor · 05-25-2011, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alefito6804

is that a statement or an assumption? i mean im sure that chan, negreanu, hellmuth, dwan, ivey none of them need to still play poker to have a great life, they dont really need any more money

phil ivey's near constant irritability, negreanu's physical ticks, hellmuth's anger problems, dwan's clear lack of sleep.... it doesn't take a doctor to see that the intense competition causes high levels of stress that cause substance abuse, physical neglect of one's body or both. I still would rather live my life than Tom Dwan's, he'll have years where the toll it takes on his body and mind is worth no sum of money.

And I'd challenge people to go ask the top 100 pros whether they'd switch their career path and lifestyle with mine when I graduate. I'm not bragging, I just don't think many people would take the instability of poker over the potential involved with certain career paths stemming from university. I was making a tiny bit more at poker than I do at my job and I am a million times happier now than i was playing poker.

KlaSuu · 05-25-2011, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canoodles

You meant $15000/year right? $150000/year at NL200 is 20bb/hour playing 10 hours per day...

There's a thing known as multitabling. You can play many tables at the same time. If your winrate is 5bb/100, play 500 hands/hour (bout 7 tables), thats 25bb/hour. Add a rakeback deal to that and if you play 200h/month (same as a 45h/week job) you're getting around 150000/year.
That's obviously very hard to maintain that winrate and volume even though there are people who do it. But if you think nl200 pro's players make 15k a year then you live on another planet.

Quote:

phil ivey's near constant irritability, negreanu's physical ticks, hellmuth's anger problems, dwan's clear lack of sleep.... it doesn't take a doctor to see that the intense competition causes high levels of stress that cause substance abuse, physical neglect of one's body or both. I still would rather live my life than Tom Dwan's, he'll have years where the toll it takes on his body and mind is worth no sum of money.

And I'd challenge people to go ask the top 100 pros whether they'd switch their career path and lifestyle with mine when I graduate. I'm not bragging, I just don't think many people would take the instability of poker over the potential involved with certain career paths stemming from university. I was making a tiny bit more at poker than I do at my job and I am a million times happier now than i was playing poker.

If you think you can make acheive the kind of money or success similiar as Ivey or Dwan with no sacrifices such as little sleep then you have found the best career ever.
Also you mentionned the intense competetion : This is similiar in every single field where you want to be succesful. You can't really have a succesfull career without stress and sacrifices.

"And I'd challenge people to go ask the top 100 pros whether they'd switch their career path and lifestyle with mine when I graduate."
So you either think the top 100 pro's hate their job or that you will become an extremely succesfull person. Two things you don't really know yet.

Not to mention people who start their own companies take a much bigger risk than poker players, work 3x as much, and most of the time get rewarded with less (financially), if nothing at all except for experience (which, granted, is very valuable).

Btw, I'm not a poker pro, I'm studying at university and will most likely get a job after I graduate, but it just pisses me off when people who either have not played poker professionally or did not make significant amount's of money at it (If you make 25k/year playing poker I doubt it's going to be great unless you really really love poker and don't have many other career prospects) say that playing poker sucks or that a career is so much better etc... because they compare it some busto live pro's or semi-degenerates who play online 20hours/day because they can't pay rent otherwise.
If someone can make 100k+ doing what they love in their early years and it gives them a lot of freedom, why should they quit to take a job they most likely won't enjoy ?
If I could make the same kind of money at some of my hobbies than some do playing poker profesionally, I would be extremely happy, yet because that hobby is poker, people tell them they're better off getting a job than doing what they love.
Now if it's only about the money, unless you're doing very well at poker I agree it is not a bad idea to get a career in another field instead. If you don't like poker then it's quite obvious you shouldn't do it for a living unless (and even then), you make some serious money at it (money that would be very hard to make in another career).

Kingston24 · 05-25-2011, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleR90

I think its a great post you made OP. Many of the young players on this board, including myself, are starting to realize the bitter and painful pill that reality is to swallow. I think many of us are so determined to keep this poker dream alive that we become defensive and are not absorbing the message you are trying to convey.

Yes, it IS possible to be a professional poker player these days. By "professional" I simply mean, definitively, playing poker as your main/sole source of income. It is being done at many different levels by thousands of players around the world. As much as I agree with OP, I'd like to think this is still at least for a temporary time period, a legitimate possibility for me. Regardless of whether or not being a "pro" is feasible, the original post is meant for all of us young players, successful or otherwise, to take a big step back.

Pretty much all of us that play/have played considerable amounts of poker are people that I would deem analytical. Well why not analyze our lives and the bigger picture for a moment?

Now since we are all poker players here I feel its appropriate to quote our infamous hero, Mike Mc'D, as saying "some people forget the cardinal ****ing rule. Always leave yourself outs"

I bring up this quotation because that's really what I feel OP is driving at. Regardless of your success or failure in this game, its important to gauge the impact of investing massive amounts of time and emotion into poker. The impact on relations with family and friends, impact on our physical and mental well being, impact on our resumes and future opportunities.

Take a moment to think back to the days before all of this poker stuff was even in your life. Your understanding of this whole "poker" thing was playing an innocent game of 5 card draw with your friends around some raggedy wooden table betting next to nothing with fake ****ty plastic chips. Think about what your priorities were back then, your hopes and dreams. Imagine what your life might be like if poker as you know it now and the information highway of 2p2 didn't stumble along in your life.

Would you be better off? Some of us yes, some of us, no. The point I'm making is while poker has given so much to many of us, lets keep poker in perspective. Why lose sight of all your life goals, lose touch with childhood friends and family, become more and more mentally jaded dealing with the highs and lows of gambling for your food and rent money. Is going through all of this really worth making some money playing a game?

Risk vs. reward. This is a question we are constantly posed at the poker tables, but perhaps not enough in our own lives. Grinding out low-mid stakes cash games may net you enough to survive and slowly save up some funds on the side but is that reward worth the life opportunities you may be missing?

Lets say for instance instead of going downtown with a few friends where you might meet the girl of your dreams, you've ran awful and are stuck on the week and decide to spend 12 grueling hours multi-tabling alone at home on a saturday night only to end up wiggling out a break-even session and then going to sleep. Days turn into weeks, weeks into months, and the next thing you know another year has come and gone and your doing the same thing, playing similar maybe even the same stakes as before, with nothing tangible besides maybe a larger savings account to show for it.

I'm not saying you cant play loads of poker and have a life too, I'm saying think about the importance of leaving yourself "outs". Grinding 5/10nl live might net you a larger yearly salary than almost any "regular" job out there could, but what will it do for your future? What if the poker well dries up and the decks go ice cold, and you decide you simply can't hack it in the poker world anymore? Where does this leave you?

I think OP is simply speaking from experience and saying that irrespective of your status in the poker world, whether your break even over 300k hands @ 25 nl or you are absolutely crushing 1000nl, think about the big picture. As much as many of us would like to pull a Doyle Brunson and gamble our way into our 70s, its simply not going to happen. Eventually, no matter how much money you make, this poker thing will one day come to an end for you.

I want to personally thank OP for trying hard to battle through the naivety that many of us young players have on this forum and to try your best to refresh our fire for life a bit. There is so much to do in this world and this thread should simply serve as a reminder for that. Its very healthy to take a break from the cold, scientific analysis of the posts on twoplustwo and a vacation from the mercilessness of the cards.

Cliffs:

Go for a soul searching walk in the ****ing park, perhaps smoke a joint or sip a cocktail, and truly analyze your life like you do odds and hand ranges at the tables. You might just make a decision on a random Wednesday afternoon that completely changes your life for the better. I know, if anything, such revelations will never come in a smoky casino poker room or the digital card tables of the interwebs.

Food for thought

and good luck to all of us still plugging away on our own poker odysseys. I hope only the best for you all

great post! i think all of smart-ass kids above with ego bursting from every hole they got, should reraed this post at least 100 times and if they still don't learn from it, poker will teach you a lesson, that's for sure!
peace

canoodles · 05-25-2011, 04:11 PM

Maintaining a win-rate of 5bb/100 at NL200 is already an impressive feat let alone keeping that win rate with 7 tables (I'm a HU player). To assume that $150000/year at 200NL is an achievable goal for anyone but the top 0.001% of the player pool is ridiculous. This is basically the unrealistic-goal type of thinking that I alluded to.

alefito6804 · 05-25-2011, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canoodles

Maintaining a win-rate of 5bb/100 at NL200 is already an impressive feat let alone keeping that win rate with 7 tables (I'm a HU player). To assume that $150000/year at 200NL is an achievable goal for anyone but the top 0.001% of the player pool is ridiculous. This is basically the unrealistic-goal type of thinking that I alluded to.

you are starting to sound like you dont even know what you are talking about, you can make 100k/year+ @NL200 just by playing "a lot"

let me give you an example, playing 4k hands @nl200 24 tabling CAP tables (something EASY to do) and that only takes 3 hours per day you'll earn 1.000.000 VPP points in 1 year, which means you archived supernova Elite worth 103k, now you can either have table winnings, break even,or you can even be a losing player, but you WILL have those 103K