I guess I don't "suck" compared to most players. Most players are losing players. But considering I have played this game over 10+ years you would think I would be better by now. I am small winner in mostly 1/2 NL live games. I feel like my understanding of the game is better that it once was, but my execution and patience is something that just doesn't improve. There are nights when I lose more than I should, but I also keep a strict stop loss. I study the game, watch videos, have even got some coaching both for mental game and strategy but was unable to keep it ongoing due to cost. I have read dozens of books, most of which just confused me more. No book can develop patience. You would think experience would but it doesn't. The personalitly we have is our personality. I want to be a better player. I want to CRUSH, not just find a small profit. The game is only fun when I WIN.

If I played golf as much as a played poker, I would definitely show improvement. But with poker it doesn't seem to be that way. I even was grinding microstakes and some HU SNGs for a few years and got in something like an extra 50k hands a year. Not anything crazy, but you would think all those hands would count for something.

I want to get my game as close as possible so that my losses are only from bad beats or small mistakes. Not spewying off most my stack due to impatience, tilt, etc. Taking lower varience lines instead. I find this frusterating because all I can do is find myself in a position where all I can do is vent and moan about it. I have taken every avenue to try to improve, and as much as I want to improve maybe I just have to accept that I will always be a small winning amateur. I'm a smart guy, but maybe my brain isn't ideal for poker and thats ok.

I'm just wondering if anyone else can relate and if they ever found themselves in a similar position did they every find a way to breakthrough and really improve. Is this possible or can some of us only improve so much?

Will I just always suck?

I can relate somewhat.
I been playing semi-regulary for over 12 years both live and online but I preffer live.
2/2, 2/4 and 5/5 is what's available in my casino (Netherlands) and I live 5 min walk from it.
I play tournaments online.

I just got home after a terrible session and i ended the evening much earlier then i was planning to because I played my last hand like an idiot and I'm still mad at myself.
I got 3-beted by a reg nit while I was holding QQ and I knew that at best I was fliping vs AK and still decided to shove 110 BBs pre like a moron because of some earlier tilt.
When K hit the flop I already new I lost and just decided to end the evening right there.
Flipping for 100+ BBs is not what a good player does and if I wasn't on light tilt I would have folded pre.

Psychology is sorta my hobby and I've read tons of books and i totally understand how our brains work, I've been working on my tilt for years and yet still i make noob mistakes when I'm agitated for some reason.
I'm disqusted by myself because I know I'm better then just giving in to tilt but now and then i still suffer from the same mistakes I was making a decade ago.
I don't have an answer for it atm just wanted to tell you that you are not alone in this heh

Yeah, patience is probably the single biggest key to beating the $1/2 games. The biggest reason is that you can't bluff donkeys. You pretty much have to wait for hands and then value bet them to death.

I find in an 8 hour session, I usually play only between 1-4 good sized pots. The rest of the time I try to pay as much attention to other players as I can. It definitely can be boring and I'm always tempted to do dumb things out of boredom. J9s can start to look like AA when you've been card dead for two hours. Drinking and being social helps me have patience with the cards.

Have you tried listening to music when you play?

How does your impatience manifest itself in your game? Do you start calling raises from the big blind with K9s? Do you crave the action and build big pots without big hands?

I think patience is something that can be learned. Have you tried meditating?

Identifying and plugging leaks (especially emotional/tilt/patience) plays a crucial role in improving your game in the long run.
However, poker is not like any other game or sport in that even if you make the right plays or decisions on the felt, you can still lose because of suckouts and variance. It's not like golf or basketball where practicing consistently will improve your game during any single hand. For example, imagine playing basketball (if you're in America) and practicing free throw shots daily until you can practically sink them. As you go up to shoot, the referee comes out rolls the dice, and based on the outcome of the roll, he instructs another ref to change the height of the basket. This is somewhat like what happens when you shove with a short stack on rockets and lose to 44 when he hits his one-outer. You can do all the right things and still lose. We've all read and studied so this is nothing new. What is really lacking is a firm strategy on how to deal with the gut wrenching feeling that comes with these types of hits.

OP, you might not suck as much as you think. If you're a small-stakes avg winning player, the good news is YOU'RE STILL WINNING. Some guys, most players, lose or break even in the long run. That's how pros make their living, off the backs of "fish" or "donks" or "producers" who love the game and don't mind the occasional $20 hit for the chance of hitting that big full house for a quick $60 come-up. This is 99% of the poker world. Small stakes, home games, drunken casino 5/10 players looking of the rush of out-playing a reg.

While you might be destined to stay in the kiddy-poker-pond for the rest of your life, it's never too late to get a grip, roll up a stake, and take your best shot at a higher stakes level. And if you do take a shot and fail, just suck it up, get over it and grind it out as a small stakes avg winning player.

In psychology they call this a "fixed mindset". It's akin to being unable to learn french and then deciding that our personality just can't learn french.

re: your issue.

- Not being able to afford coaching is an excuse. You could get staked, or you could set aside X amount per week or month and have one or two sessions where you just pummel the guy with questions, and then work your ass off on those until your next session.

- Who cares how many poker books you've read? I don't think I've even read 10 books on poker, but there's 2 or 3 that I've read 3-4 times each, with 50 pages dog eared and tonnes of highlighted sections. I also have 2 notebooks full of notes from coaching sessions, poker videos, as well as books where I keep track of opponents (moved to my computer for simplicity.)

- The sections of those books that confused you more should all be posted online, or to a coach. Finding out things I don't know is very motivating for me, and if you truly want to CRUSH, you'd cut costs in other areas of your life in order to pay a coach to help you figure out how to. In reality, most people would LOVE to CRUSH.... so long as they don't have to put in any more effort than they already are.

-You say you're a smart guy, but that remains to be seen. If poker books confused you more than before, perhaps you're not smart. That doesn't mean you can't work hard to BECOME smart.

- And lastly, poker shouldn't only be fun when you win. Even the biggest crushers out there have losing days, weeks, or even months. Yet most of them are focusing on how to continue to improve, whether they truly are playing good, and never giving up. Having a stop loss is essentially quitting. Not saying they're terrible, but no top pro leaves a table full of fish (with artificially bloated stacks) because they lose a few buyins. Poker should be something you enjoy. For me, I love knowing that my work outside of the table has given me an edge against many of the guys I used to struggle against. I used to think I was smart, and would get depressed when a solid player crushed me. I made excuses for not paying for coaching, I made excuses for how they must just be lucky since I'm "smart" I should be able to figure it out. One day, I had enough of my excuses. I paid a therapist for months, got coaching for months. And my game turned around bigtime. But I put in the work. If you truly study hard, let yourself be vulnerable enough to admit your game needs improvement, I'm positive that you can reach your goals. Remember, the only time Work comes before Success is the dictionary.

FWIW - I don't think most poker books are geared towards the low limit live games, but I have found a few that have been worthwhile. And there are nuggets from other books that I remember. What I really would like is a buddy who is better than me who I can discuss hands with on a regular basis in addition to general time/money/mental game strategy, etc. Everyone I know is not "better" than me nor do they take the game seriously or play enough to understand the specifics of the games I play. BUT, I do agree - there are always ways to work harder to find success.

CHECK HERE


Should be able to find someone there

I bring a book with me to live games the best thing I ever did.

Wondering if OP has been playing poker FT or held a job at the same time. If the latter, that would be why. This isn't 2004. If you are not eating, drinking, sleeping, breathing poker you wont hit your goals as you outlined them. Not trying to be mean or anything, I like your attitude, but it's just the way it is.

EDIT: An extra 50K hands in a year is pretty weak. You can knock off 50K in 3 weeks online.

That's a bad solution. You are completely missing out on a ton of information. I guess if you want to be a slightly winning player that just peddles the nuts, then that would work. If you want to maximize your win rate, you have to be focused on how everyone is playing.

There's a local at my casino who reads a book while he plays. I notice that he doesn't react to the dynamics at the table or player tendencies. His failure to pay attention costs him a lot of money.

Not really I got a good fix on other players (I play with the same bunch every other night) I still bluff, I still use my btn, etc...I can mix it up and don't nut peddle.

The point of the book is because other players take so dam long with their bets and raises but yes your probably right I should pay attention but I can't stand the fact that someone is tanking on a Queen high flush draw on the turn facing an all in its comical actually 9 players staring at this guy waiting to see if gambles a flush draw.

Last night for example it took a guy a full minute to limp UTG with T8hh I just wonder what they are thinking half the time.

You can always tell who watches too many TV shows like Poker After Dark and tries to imitate their favorite celebrities.

You don't need books or coaches to crush. You just need to stop playing bad. Potentially more knowledge or coaching could give you the confidence you need to stop playing bad, but I doubt it.

^ I think everyone thinks this... until they actually get a good coach. I got myself pretty far without one, but coaching took me to the next level. I wasn't even aware of how much more there was to learn. I'd bet 99% of solid winners have used coaches. Even a ton of top pros hire each other to sharpen their skills.

He's playing 1/2. It isn't rocket science. Sharpening his skills isn't addressing his problem. He specifically stated that he has issues with execution, patience, and tilt. A weak mental game is the primary reason he is only a small winner in these games.

A good coach will help you with the mental game.

You're minimizing the issue to "stop playing bad." I guess we can just close the psychology forum.

Players have gotten better over the years it's not just you.. This is why I don't even play poker anymore. Most of the fish have left the game!

I found Chris Ferguson's bankroll method to be the key that helped me learn the game without going broke. It was really frustrating at first because I started with $50 and couldn't play MTTs till I had $100, and once I got to $100 I wouldn't cash in a couple MTTs and have to move down again. That being said, I never went broke and was able to become a consistent winner.

As for how I actually got better it was mostly posting hands on 2+2 and using analytic software to plug leaks. Also, I've always been good at keeping my cool under pressure and making good decisions. There is an emotional reality to the game and it's important to understand yourself and how you're reacting during the game. This is probably why I had the discipline to move down when required by my bankroll.

How good would you say you are at identifying what you're feeling when you're feeling it? Do you think you're making technical errors or emotional ones? Do you ever play tired, drunk, high or in another state that might compromise your decision making?

The fish haven't left the game. The winning players have mostly stuck around, and are trying to be better than the other winners so they can sit the fish.

I talk to the other players or play with my phone to pase the time and hopping for better times.

Cleverbeans nailed it.

• Gain from experience. Play a lot of hands and learn from each. However, OP said he's been playing for 12 years.
• Post specific hands with specific questions on the forums and consider every poster's answers while filtering for the best answers ones.
• Use software to plug leaks.
• Stay emotionally even keeled.
  
  -
  
• Don't believe all that you read. Question everything. OP, you said you read over 12 books and that they just confused you more. Not all books have good advice in them, some are written poorly, there are plenty of contradictions within a lot of them, and even more contradictions when comparing one author's perspective to anothers. Sift through the materials and think for yourself.
• Give yourself a larger margin for error in terms of BR managment so that losses don't faze you. You stated you didn't use a coach due to cost. This to me means money is an issue. Losing a large 1/2 pot means less if you you give yourself a margin of safety above beyond what is generally prescribed.
• Don't take the same strategies and apply them over and over again expecting a different win rate. Experiment with new lines to improve your game. Sometimes it takes going back a step through experimentation to move forward.

Yeah, you can know theory well, but if OP has trouble applying that knowledge at the tables due to patience (e.g. from boredom, needing to be in the action, etc.), tilt, or whatever, what OP 'knows' and what he can do at the tables will be two different things.

Good advice.

This.

CaptainCrazo

The problem I have with the advice is that you guys continue to just gloss over the most significant part of OP's issue.

You wrote a huge long post on how to improve as a poker player but the reason OP is posting in the Psychology subforum is because he has huge mental game issues which are burning his profits away and this is the only point you made related to mental game and I don't see how that is helpful given that everyone knows you need to stay emotionally even keeled.


You credited this to me but I didn't post it.

You credited this to me but I didn't post it.

My bad.

Correcting my mistake by crediting appropriate poster here:

We disagree. Your advice:

Paraphrasing:

• "Books and coaches are unnecessary."
• "Stop playing badly."
• "More knowledge and coaching may improve confidence, but you doubt it."
• "The limit OP's playing isn't rocket science."
• "Sharpening OP's skills won't fix anything."
• "OP has problems are with execution, patience, and tilt."
• "OP's weak mental game is the reason why he is a only a small winner."

Where do you think you were providing actionable solution(s) to OP's 'mental game issues'?

Then you say:

My advice to improve OP's mental game issues was for OP to do the following:

(Note: Under the 1st grouping of bullets I was paraphasing the advice of a previous poster's (CleaverBean's) advice that was directed at OP. That paraphrased advice included being "cool headed under pressure.")

• Gain from experience. Play a lot of hands and learn from each. However, OP said he's been playing for 10+ years.
• Post specific hands with specific questions on the forums and consider every poster's answers while filtering for the best answers ones.
• Use software to plug leaks.
• Stay emotionally even keeled. Or, "stay cool headed under pressure."
  
  In the 2nd grouping of bullets I gave my advice to the OP:
  
• Don't believe all that you read. Question everything. OP, you said you read over 10 books and that they just confused you more. Not all books have good advice in them, some are written poorly, there are plenty of contradictions within a lot of them, and even more contradictions when comparing one author's perspective to anothers. Sift through the materials and think for yourself.
• Give yourself a larger margin for error in terms of BR managment so that losses don't faze you. You stated that you didn't use a coach due to cost. This to me says money is an issue. Losing a large 1/2 pot will mean less to you if you you give yourself a margin of safety above beyond what is generally prescribed.
• Don't take the same strategies and apply them over and over again expecting a different win-rate. Experiment with new lines to improve your game. Sometimes it takes going back a step through experimentation to move forward.

The advice I gave relates to OP's mental game as follows.

1. Under bullet #1 in the 2nd grouping, I gave OP the advice because he said he felt "more confused" after reading 10+ books on the subject. Being "more confused" after reading 10+ poker books is a 'mental game' issue.
2. Under bullet #2 in the 2nd grouping, it states that having a larger BR devoted strictly to poker may ease the anxiety OP feels after losing a big pot on a given hand because he will have lost a smaller % of his BR in that loss. This in turn may reduce his mental game issues at the tables.
3. Under bullet #3 in the 2nd grouping, it states not to do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. I tell OP to learn and apply new lines to increase his win-rate. If he were able to increase his win-rate by doing so, it would very likely decrease OP's 'mental game issues' (e.g. tilt and patience problems). OP would in turn develop more confidence as a result of having an increased long-term win-rate.

The problem I have with your advice NeverLosesAtPoker is that you provided none. Then you complain about me glossing over the most significant part of OP's issue, while providing nothing relevant to the discussion.

NeverLoses, here's your advice again, in a nutshell:

• "Books and coaches are unnecessary."
• "Stop playing badly."
• "More knowledge and coaching may improve confidence, but you doubt it."
• "The limit OP's playing isn't rocket science."
• "Sharpening OP's skills won't fix anything."
• "OP has problems are with execution, patience, and tilt."
• "OP's weak mental game is the reason why he is a only a small winner."

CaptainCrazo

I haven't given any real advice. I was just pointing out that no one is addressing the OP's actual problem. I came to this psychology subforum to find direction and i have found none. I have a better understanding of the game than 90%+ of the players I play with and still suffer from the same issues as OP. I expected all sort of information to be stickied at the top and potentially some epic threads about mental game but haven't found anything. Thus far I've found better advice in the Poker, Goals, and Challenges sub-forum.