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Old 08-13-2016, 03:08 PM   #1
gjpure
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Is tilt really fixable?

There is nothing I hate more than playing bad poker due to impatience, boredom or various forms of tilt. There are many forms, more than most realize as Jared Tendler outlines. I realize now that I suffer from almost all of them when not winning. I have read his books and even talked to him/emailed directly about many issues. But not person or book can make me suddenly stop tilting.

I wish there was a fix to this, but I don't think there is. I know the focus should be on making good decisions, not winning pots or being a hero. I know this, but when I get into a game and things are not going my way, my brain just seems to malfunction. Its like I want to win so bad, I can not stand to lose so I fight to win even if I take on more risks such as bluffs, etc.

Sometimes, when this is working, its seems justified. But in reality, maybe I was just getting lucky that my poor tiltly plays just happened to work at the time. In the end, poker always gives your what you deserve and keeps you accountable for your decisions.

I seriously think its just part of my personality. I can not imagine just being the completely different person who doesn't care about results. That can just play the game the same way whether card dead for hours, running bad, or running great. But some people do this or come pretty darn close. That's the mark of a true professional, and why I will never call myself one until I can seal this leak. It is absolutely devastating to lose in this manner. I can accept loosing, I know its part of the game, but burning money through forms of tilt is not acceptable.

HOW CAN I POSSIBLY STOP THIS??

I have pre game ritual and notes that I try to remind myself with. Ive done many things, and nothing seems to work. It sickens me that I can not play my best consistently and especially when things are not going perfect. I seriously want to be card dead for the rest of the year and run like garbage just so I can be tested to learn how to deal with this! What does it take or am I just skrewed?
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Old 08-13-2016, 06:12 PM   #2
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjpure View Post
There is nothing I hate more than playing bad poker due to impatience, boredom or various forms of tilt. There are many forms, more than most realize as Jared Tendler outlines. I realize now that I suffer from almost all of them when not winning. I have read his books and even talked to him/emailed directly about many issues. But not person or book can make me suddenly stop tilting.

I wish there was a fix to this, but I don't think there is. I know the focus should be on making good decisions, not winning pots or being a hero. I know this, but when I get into a game and things are not going my way, my brain just seems to malfunction. Its like I want to win so bad, I can not stand to lose so I fight to win even if I take on more risks such as bluffs, etc.

Sometimes, when this is working, its seems justified. But in reality, maybe I was just getting lucky that my poor tiltly plays just happened to work at the time. In the end, poker always gives your what you deserve and keeps you accountable for your decisions.

I seriously think its just part of my personality. I can not imagine just being the completely different person who doesn't care about results. That can just play the game the same way whether card dead for hours, running bad, or running great. But some people do this or come pretty darn close. That's the mark of a true professional, and why I will never call myself one until I can seal this leak. It is absolutely devastating to lose in this manner. I can accept loosing, I know its part of the game, but burning money through forms of tilt is not acceptable.

HOW CAN I POSSIBLY STOP THIS??

I have pre game ritual and notes that I try to remind myself with. Ive done many things, and nothing seems to work. It sickens me that I can not play my best consistently and especially when things are not going perfect. I seriously want to be card dead for the rest of the year and run like garbage just so I can be tested to learn how to deal with this! What does it take or am I just skrewed?
I'm now of the opinion that most of Tendler's stuff, as well as some of the other poker mental coaches, is mostly garbage and pretty much worthless at best. For instance, tilt occurs when you lose the ability to think rationally at the poker table and it occurs because your mind is not able to process information that gets presented to it, and improving your understanding of all things poker so your mind can process more difficult information will help you in the tilt area.

In my book and other writings, see our 2+2 Online Strategy Magazine for a couple of recent articles, I describe two completely different states from tilt, which I call "pseudo tilt" and "searching" that people like Tendler aren't even aware of and which you are probably confusing with tilt.

And finally when you say that you want to be card dead for the rest of the year this sounds like someone who wants to use tilt as an excuse for not winning instead of understanding that long term poor results usually mean that your game needs a lot of work. This idea is also addressed in my book.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 08-14-2016, 05:51 AM   #3
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Is tilt fixable? i guess would depend on your definition of tilt and identifying what are the things that make you tilt? I disagree that tilt is caused by inability to process current situation, well at least not for me, its the other way round.

As most things in poker however, it depends... Your personality and your set of belifes. Some may be modified and adjusted, others may not, or will take effort and sacrifice then its really worth.

Easy and immediate effective solution on how to avoid burning trough bi's when on tilt is simple. Stand up and walk away. If you can't, ask yourself, why not ?
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Old 08-15-2016, 06:13 AM   #4
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Sometimes I think ok I will just stop tilting and then a few hands later I do something really horrible. I guess all I can do is walk away in that situation but that doesn't fix the tilt. It still creeps up. I'm still a winning player, but my biggest leak by far is these moments of tilt, etc.
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Old 08-15-2016, 02:40 PM   #5
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

TL;DR incoming...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjpure View Post
Sometimes I think ok I will just stop tilting
This is plain wrong. Tilt is something that is not under your control. It is not a switch you flip on or off. If it is I chose to never tilt. That's the whole issue with tilt in the first place.

If you think "it" is under your control then by (my)"definition" it is not a tilted state.

One can work on "fixing it" but rather I would just work on recognizing it and leaving early while still in control; by resolving causes of tilt and/or to prevent it or delay the onset (depending on what tilts you)
A) desentesizing yourself/rationalising things which make you tilt, bad beats, results (expectations), variance etc.
B) Working on coping strategies, how to recognize warning signs of onset of tilt and what to do in each situations, how to "fight" tilt, or play trough it or work on your B, C game (if that's even possible) which may be necessary in tournaments when you can't leave
C) Hop on one leg while screaming "holdddd"
Whatever works...

But in cash games, why would you want to do any of that, when you can just walk away, calm down, then spend that time and energy into analyzing the situation calmly and see if you made a mistake or not. I was surprised just how many times I actually made a mistake in my thinking but didn't realize it at the moment and in effect I had put myself on tilt blaming Z.

It could also, very well, be that you too are making spew's not due to a tilted state but some other misconception about poker, opponents, or some other assumption based on past results and then blaming it on tilt.

The way I like to differentiate the two causes of spew and horribad plays is to ask myself: "Did I actually think throughout that hand?" If I can say yes, then I ask myself where did I make a mistake or why did i think xxx or yyy and how can I play that hand differently. If I say no, I have no idea why the f*** I did that, then I can see that I wasn't actually thinking it trough, or processing information while in the hand, and I look for a cause why not.

What's helping me also is keeping a record of my feelings at the time of key hands, not just my decisions and how did the hand play out technically but how and what did I actually feel during the hand, both when I played the hand well (how did that feel) and when I botched the hand (how did I feel during that hand) then latter think about why I felt that way and what caused it... (anxiety, relaxed, calm and in control, thinking about that waitress or why some Jacks have mustaches

If you are a FT player, try reducing volume and length of sessions. You will experience tilt less frequent and play better quality sessions guaranteed.

Just my 2c

GL (It is a struggle)

Last edited by a12; 08-15-2016 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 08-15-2016, 04:40 PM   #6
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjpure View Post
There are many forms, more than most realize as Jared Tendler outlines. I realize now that I suffer from almost all of them when not winning. I have read his books and even talked to him/emailed directly about many issues. But not person or book can make me suddenly stop tilting.
I wonder how many forms of tilt you suffered from before reading MGoP.....
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Old 08-15-2016, 08:19 PM   #7
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Tilt is a state of mind and every state of mind is temporary and alterable. When it starts to hit, take a 15 minute walk through the casino thinking of anything but poker. At the 3 or 4 minute mark, generally, you begin to separate pretty fully from the experience and state of mind at the table ... then you breeze on for another 10 minutes or so and return to the table quite refreshed. It's close to a magic bullet. Stress is a ***** and anti-stress measures are quite effective.
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Old 08-16-2016, 05:29 AM   #8
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Good advice. Sometimes its really hard to get up and take that walk. Being competitive, I am very determined to win. Sometimes a few horrible plays makes me tilt, especially in a soft game in situations where I should not be making these mistakes. For example, last week I paid a guy off in a spot where I am almost never winning. I knew the guy had a flush but I was hoping he had just top pair and paid off with my over pair. Then a little later I double barreled turn and river with J10 high on a AAx flop xx TR and got called by KQ high. In terms of strategy, I know the pay off hand with KK was way worse. If a guy has K high and wants to call me so be it! But when all string of bad plays, loosing hands, etc start to accumulate and I start to feel stupider and stupider I just want the pain to end and I start punting off stacks. This is probably more likely in a 1/2 game when I start getting beat by horrible players when, in fact, I am actually in that moment an even worse player. This is why I think game selection is so important. I know certain games may tilt me more for whatever reason. Just the other day a Euro guy didn't understand chopping. I tried to explain it to him and he still didn't understand and the floor had to come over and it was a big scene about something elementary. Little things can annoy me out of no where. But I used to be annoyed with traffic and now living in Las Vegas, I am totally calm and patient in traffic, so maybe this is possible too.

It comes from a deeper place, I am sure. I certainly don't blame anyone else but myself. When it comes to conduct, attitude, and general behavior when things are not going great, I really need to find a way to improve. Going for a walk may or may not help, but it sure can't hurt. Sometimes just having that moment to get back into a rational way of thinking may be what I need and not being stubborn and staying in that game or table. I think I have improved somewhat, but its still there once in a while.
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Old 08-16-2016, 11:38 AM   #9
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

I think it is! For sure! Tilt is an attitude you choose to take when you get money in well and lose 80:20. Come on it will happen, multiple times per 1K+ hands session.... you should be happy opponent put his stack being such a huge underdog! Other 4 times he'll lose!

I was a victim of this poisenous thinking too, EVERYONE was! but today I just laughed it off once aqj3dddd sucked out via my aces (money got in pre) so he won 100bb, he later lost 600 to me because he was SO bad hell even a single river value bet got my 100bb with interest back!

It's just stupid to tilt. It's all about whether you made the right decision. After that the cards fall where they may, its not up to you! Praise the Lord someone took you on 1to4 odds!

Cheers mates!
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Old 08-16-2016, 05:01 PM   #10
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Tilt is fixable but the solutions lie within. I'm sorry for being cliche but it's true. I wouldn't give much credit to a coach unless they were demonstrably helping you.

My suggestion is to play the lowest stakes highest variance games you can until you come to grips with what variance is like. If it's extremely frustrating for you then good, you have the venue to test yourself with until you finally come to terms with it.
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Old 08-16-2016, 09:35 PM   #11
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjpure View Post
There is nothing I hate more than playing bad poker due to impatience, boredom or various forms of tilt. There are many forms, more than most realize as Jared Tendler outlines. I realize now that I suffer from almost all of them when not winning. I have read his books and even talked to him/emailed directly about many issues. But not person or book can make me suddenly stop tilting.

I wish there was a fix to this, but I don't think there is. I know the focus should be on making good decisions, not winning pots or being a hero. I know this, but when I get into a game and things are not going my way, my brain just seems to malfunction. Its like I want to win so bad, I can not stand to lose so I fight to win even if I take on more risks such as bluffs, etc.

Sometimes, when this is working, its seems justified. But in reality, maybe I was just getting lucky that my poor tiltly plays just happened to work at the time. In the end, poker always gives your what you deserve and keeps you accountable for your decisions.

I seriously think its just part of my personality. I can not imagine just being the completely different person who doesn't care about results. That can just play the game the same way whether card dead for hours, running bad, or running great. But some people do this or come pretty darn close. That's the mark of a true professional, and why I will never call myself one until I can seal this leak. It is absolutely devastating to lose in this manner. I can accept loosing, I know its part of the game, but burning money through forms of tilt is not acceptable.

HOW CAN I POSSIBLY STOP THIS??

I have pre game ritual and notes that I try to remind myself with. Ive done many things, and nothing seems to work. It sickens me that I can not play my best consistently and especially when things are not going perfect. I seriously want to be card dead for the rest of the year and run like garbage just so I can be tested to learn how to deal with this! What does it take or am I just skrewed?

How often do you meditate and if so, for how long? What are you doing as part of your pre game ritual?
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Old 08-17-2016, 08:13 AM   #12
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

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Originally Posted by winnercircle View Post
How often do you meditate and if so, for how long? What are you doing as part of your pre game ritual?
I have notes in my phone that basically poker is about making good decisions, not winning every pot or proving something. That poker does not care what fair or what you think you deserve.

I'm really not sure if these helps however.
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Old 08-18-2016, 01:37 AM   #13
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

I'd look into meditating before you play, perhaps in your car. I don't think that reading something off a phone is going to put you in the state of mind to make good decisions.

Also, thinking tilt is just part of your personality is such a copout. It's basically the sort of excuse people make so they don't have to make difficult, positive changes in their lives.

You can either work toward the results you want, or you can make excuses for why your circumstances are somehow different than others around you.
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:20 AM   #14
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

To take on another perspective, isn't it just clear that you don't have to regret putting money 51:49 favorite? it's the way casinos make billions. You just need to have a net (big enough bankroll). Its probably an indication you ain't got big enough bankroll for the stakes if you tilt...

Even now that I got like $160 bankroll, it would make me at least a bit upset had I lost 20 buyins in 1-2 sessions @ PLO2. But its up to me if I let it set the mood starting tomorrow.
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Old 08-21-2016, 04:15 AM   #15
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by winnercircle View Post
I'd look into meditating before you play, perhaps in your car. I don't think that reading something off a phone is going to put you in the state of mind to make good decisions.

Also, thinking tilt is just part of your personality is such a copout. It's basically the sort of excuse people make so they don't have to make difficult, positive changes in their lives.

You can either work toward the results you want, or you can make excuses for why your circumstances are somehow different than others around you.

Or meditating just anywhere anytime. Right before session not necessary, and maybe less productive than in non-rushed other setting. Just breathe, pay attention to the breath, slow down, all the pursuits of the day stop. think about the breath, becoming more present to the moment rather than always sprinting into whatever is next not ever being anywhere but always heading somewhere else, breathe, my belly expands and I feel my body. You aren't solving mysteries of the universe, you are standing down in the 24/7 diversion game. To see what consciousness is really like. To see what a human being rather than a human doing is. Good for meta-awareness. Which is part of tilt control. Which is good.
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Old 08-21-2016, 02:32 PM   #16
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

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I'm now of the opinion that most of Tendler's stuff, as well as some of the other poker mental coaches, is mostly garbage and pretty much worthless at best.

In your opinion, are the top players that claim Tendler's books/ mental game coaching helped them just lying?
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Old 08-22-2016, 02:17 AM   #17
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

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In your opinion, are the top players that claim Tendler's books/ mental game coaching helped them just lying?
IMO, I think Tendler has a very thorough grasp of counselling techniques. This in itself is enough to help poker players overcome some of their tilt issues. After all, you don't need to have suffered from depression to be able to counsel someone who is suffering from depression.

I would therefore assume his testimonials are fully warranted.

However, I don't think he or (other authors in the area who have attempted to write books on the subject) have a decent grasp of the links between psychology and poker, or poker psychology.
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Old 08-23-2016, 10:44 PM   #18
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Do you think anger in a general sense and anger in poker are different? And if so, in what way(s).
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Old 08-23-2016, 10:50 PM   #19
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Tilt is fixable. Just find what works for you. I have a pretty big ego, whenever I lose a big hand/get coolered/whatever and I start to feel coming on, I just think to myself that I'm better than all the other dolts who play and I'm going to show (myself) that by still playing pure. Granted I'm good so.
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Old 08-24-2016, 02:46 AM   #20
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

"I'm now of the opinion that most of Tendler's stuff, as well as some of the other poker mental coaches, is mostly garbage and pretty much worthless at best. "

Might be one of those least true things i've ever read on 2p2 by someone who is otherwise intelligent seeming.

Anyways, tilt must be defeated by learning to transcend thought and move into awareness. Start with meditation everyday (tons of youtube content on this), and learn to not take your ego/thoughts so seriously and that they arent even you, just thoughts that are attacking you due to lack of thought control which is improved upon with meditation which is basically going to the gym for the brain.

Check out this youtube channel if you want to master your psychology to an advanced level : https://www.youtube.com/user/ActualizedOrg/videos
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Old 08-24-2016, 03:01 AM   #21
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by winnercircle View Post
Do you think anger in a general sense and anger in poker are different? And if so, in what way(s).
Personally, no. I've only done a tiny amount of research on the subject (I never used to tilt), but for me the best analogy for tilt is road rage. You're in the same kind of cocoon, and it's the same, sometimes trivial, stimuli that provoke it.

My biggest criticism is obviously JT splitting tilt down into several categories. This violates one of the central tenets of science (parsimony), and to be honest, I think he's only done it to pad the book out.

Would you split road rage down into seven different types? Tailgating road rage, que jumping road rage, slow drivers road rage, etc?? My guess is that if you suffer from one, you suffer from all of them, so why delineate? same with tilt - it's the emotions provoking tilt that require attention.
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Old 08-24-2016, 11:51 PM   #22
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

I am paraphrasing here, but I once read that using accurate labels to anger our emotions helps us to correct them. I'll try seeing if I can find the book it's from. Does that sound correct though?
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Old 08-25-2016, 02:03 AM   #23
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

I'm criticising it from a scientific perspective, however, from a therapeutic perspective you might be correct. However, that's a subtle difference from what MGoP does, which is to propagate the existence of different types of tilt, rather than giving an individual a diagnosis based on their own issues and experiences.

For example, it's really important with junior athletes that you don't talk about choking - If they don't know it exists, then you're not giving them an excuse to fail.

I see the same pattern on this forum with the various types of tilt.
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Old 08-25-2016, 02:53 PM   #24
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by winnercircle View Post
In your opinion, are the top players that claim Tendler's books/ mental game coaching helped them just lying?
No. But they're fooled by the short term luck factor and also the fact that as their understanding of all things poker improved, the difficulties that they were having in the mental area began to get fixed as well.

Much of Tendler's stuff comes from the sports world, and if it works, it should help you with things like speed, timing, and coordination. But poker is mainly a knowledge game and stuff like how you might throw your chips in the pot has very little value.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 08-25-2016, 03:03 PM   #25
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Re: Is tilt really fixable?

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IMO, I think Tendler has a very thorough grasp of counselling techniques. This in itself is enough to help poker players overcome some of their tilt issues. After all, you don't need to have suffered from depression to be able to counsel someone who is suffering from depression.

I would therefore assume his testimonials are fully warranted.

However, I don't think he or (other authors in the area who have attempted to write books on the subject) have a decent grasp of the links between psychology and poker, or poker psychology.
Hi Elrazor:

The bolding is mine and I think this is absolutely correct. What most of these people like Tendler seem to do is grab things from the sports world which may help with speed, timing, and coordination, and try to apply it to poker which is predominantly a knowledge game that does not have a large execution component.

An example of this is his emphasis on unconscious competence. This is the sort of thing that allows a major league baseball player to hit a 95 mile per hour fastball where there is not enough time to consciously figure out what you need to do. It would also apply to poker if all decisions at the poker table had to be made accurately in let's say no more than two or three seconds (which is also where Cardner's silly 10,000 hour requirement to be an elite player comes from). But poker doesn't play this way and this should be obvious to everyone given all the complaining about tanking that occurs in no-limit games.

Best wishes,
Mason
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