Grinding is a little weird. I start out at a steady 9am-5pm but for some reason my schedule starts shifting forward, I start finishing grinding later and later and going to sleep later and waking up later. It's a gradual process but maybe a month later I'm waking up at like 6pm and it gets all weird. Especially when the rest of the world pretty much functions during daylight.

Even going out and partying all night can ruin my sleep schedule. So let's I'm doing a steady 9-5 and then party all night and then wake up at 5pm next day. There goes that steady, "normal" schedule and I don't know how to get back to it.

Try to stay awake until 11-12pm next evening or until whenever you think is a good time to go to bed.
That means staying awake 30+ hours (when you wake up at 5pm)
That's what worked for me in the past.

Yeah, very difficult to move a sleep schedule earlier, very easy to move it later. If you keep pushing it back later, you'll eventually cycle around to where you want it.

Best may be to prevent the issue from the start. Even if you party all night, force yourself to wake up before 5pm. Just get less sleep that night/morning (like wake up before noon) and then sleep a bit early that evening and you should wake up on time the next morning.

I think sleeping til 5am is clearly the wrong decision if you do actually care about your sleep schedule. If you want to maintain a solid and regular sleep schedule you should set your alarm for 11am-12pm before you go out for a night of partying. If you get to sleep between 2am-5am you can still get a solid nights rest and still be able to fall asleep at a normal hour the next day.

Obviously everyone sleeps differently so many of these situations may not work for you.

How?

Read this: Delayed sleep phase syndrome

I suffered with this for years and finally solved it 100% by taking Melatonin supplements (for DSPS specifically you have to take it earlier in the evening than suggested - read up on it if interested).

Before this the only thing that worked was smoking cannabis (see: this paper regarding cannabis and Melatonin production) and/or "resetting" my sleeping pattern every 4-6 weeks by staying up all night (which makes you feel like complete crap for 3-4 days...).

Absolutely nothing else worked long term (sleeping tablets, "sleep hygiene", etc, etc) and don't expect to get any helpful treatment from doctors (as, at least here in the UK: not sleeping = depressed = prescribe antidepressants...).

I think you'll find there are a good few poker pros who suffer from DSPS too, as it's one of the few professions that fits well with your altered sleep-cycles.

Juk

Also, if you are working on computers in evening/night then another thing to look into is installing f.lux (search for "melatonin production blue light" to read more on how it might help).

I've been using this for the last 2-3 years and although I can't say for sure it helps with sleep; turning it off now makes the screen seem blindingly bright!

Juk

How to move your sleep to later? Just go to sleep later than normal. Going to sleep earlier than normal is hard, later is easy.

How this can help is that you can push your sleep time like 1-2 hours later each night (making sure to wake up around 8 hours later), and while you'll end up sleeping at some weird hours, you'll eventually cycle back to normal hours.

That was certainly your experience, but I wouldn't generalize this. Sleep hygiene does actually matter. In fact, your support of f.lux shows that you support at least one aspect of sleep hygiene, so... And I would consider melatonin a "sleeping tablet," so your support of melatonin but not sleeping pills seems odd to me.

Also, I'm a psychiatrist (in the US), and equating a lack of sleep with depression is not something we're taught and it's not the standard of care. There is a relation between the two, but even today I just treated a man for insomnia in the absence of any other primary psychiatric disorder (and I didn't use an antidepressant).

Yeah, by sleeping tablets I meant "sedative hypnotics" and my support was only in regard to DSPS specifically.

I did say "at least in the UK", so the same may not be true in other countries.

I can't link it (as it seems to have closed access only now), but here is the relevant paragraph from the British National Formulary:



Juk

Yeah, this does work but if you end up having to do this more than a few times a year - it ends up a horrible way to live your life:

Firstly, you end up sleeping at very antisocial times and it's very hard for friends and relatives to understand you can't do <XXXX> because you're current waking up time is 9pm, etc.

Secondly, it seems to send a lot of your normal body systems haywire and you feel really crappy (eg: like repeated jet-lag)... Overall, trying to go to sleep at 3pm is no more natural for a DSPS sufferer than it is for a normal sleeper!

Thirdly, unless you're lucky enough to find a profession where you can take time off whenever you want and/or work your own hours, you're going to have to take time off work periodically.

Juk

I doubt things are actually different in the UK and US in this regard.

Your image doesn't actually support your assertion. It's true that depression and anxiety are common causes of insomnia, and that you should treat the underlying disorder. But it's not true that insomnia must be caused by depression, and so we don't assume an antidepressant is the solution to insomnia.

I think you'll find that it IS very different here in the UK...

Firstly, you're looking at 6-12 months to see any sort of sleep specialist (and when you do you'll be lucky to get given a badly photocopied booklet to use as a "sleep diary", and if they can't find anything physically wrong with you [sleep apnoea, etc] you'll be told with near certainty that "you know what, you don't need as much sleep as you think you do, bye...").

So that leaves the GPs to deal with you, and they simply can't prescribe hypnotics for longer than a couple of weeks (because of BMA recommendations) and their only options are: prescribe "Tricyclic" antidepressants long-term (which the BMA has no problem with) or do nothing (and likely have you return to them repeatedly as a result).

Juk

EDIT: This is not just my experience, but that of 20+ others I've known personally (over a wide range of ages and geographical locations) with the exact reasoning (regarding the BMA restrictions, etc) explained by 2 GPs I know personally.

Anyway, there is nothing more I can do to convince you and I suggest you try to search a few of the UK health-related forums (you'll find 1000's of people who've have exactly the same experience as above). Here for example is one of the comments for the first hit when you search google for "uk insomnia treatment":

Quote:

Happily married , lovely family - I am so tired of telling the Doctor that its not depression but a sleep problem but I see his eyes cloud over when I try and explain how this lack of sleep manifests and the horrific nightmares, paralysis and constant dreaming.

- http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Insomni...Treatment.aspx

Haha yea, man! Weird sleeping hours are antisocial. We're social animals, so if other animals sleep from X to Y and you sleep from Y to X... well there's a little issue there. Plus the whole world functions during "normal" hours. If you need to get something done which requires shopping or taking care of some business or even eating out - good luck with that if you woke up at 9pm - it will be a b*! Trust me I know

Trust me it's still a b because you still need to do things with other people be that social or buying from them. It's hard to do that when they're asleep

Force yourself to lose a little bit of sleep. Your body will get tired and sleep a little bit early then wake up on time. That's how I do it

Hi jukofyork I have dsps and have struggled with it for years, I have tried melatonin without much results. I already use flux, blue-blocking glasses, yellow lights, etc..

Some questions, since you say you have 100% fixed your problems!

1) What dose of melatonin do you take, and how many hours pre-bed ?

2) Do you recommend sleeping in a pitch-black room or not?

Stay awake an extra 4-6 hrs each day for two days doing it over 48 hrs (you can do it an extra 12h in one day but thats pretty miserable), I flip mine probably once every few weeks, important skill living in Australia if you both want to be able to grind optimal hours and have a social life

3mg (non-delayed release) and at least 2-3 hours before bed.

In the past I have found that 1mg worked just as well (and I'm guessing if you can find them, that even lower doses would work just as well too).

I've also tried different times and found that taking them outside the 2-4 hours range can have little (or even opposite!) effect.

I've also found that you don't have to take them every night and you can prolly get away with only taking them for 2-3 consecutive nights, as and when you start to feel your sleeping pattern slipping forwards, to "reset" it back.

Not sure if it makes any difference, but I do have blackout blinds (as much to block a street light across the road as the sun though).

Juk

PS: Another thing I've found that helps (especially if your mind is "buzzing" with thoughts), is to watch "ASMR" videos on youtube for 20-30 minutes before going to bed: even if you don't get the "Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response" thing, they seem very good at making you "zone out" and "switch off" your thoughts (much more so that any self-hypnosis and/or relaxation MP3s, etc...).

I've used melatonin in the past religiously when dealing with sleep schedule changes or bouts of insomnia brought on by jetlag, stress, etc. As mentioned by another poster, taking it 2 hours before bed always works for me. My doctor who recommended it said that taking it for a few weeks has the effect of "resetting" your sleep schedule to match that of natural circadian rhythms.

I found that the best thing is to have a "normal" sleep cycle. May be obvious to some people but I found out the hard way and it took me a very long time. The world is in sync with you. I feel better all day and I no longer need caffeine. And I'm more alert without caffeine. When it comes time for bedtime I actually want to sleep and fall asleep quickly. When I wake up, I have energy. I'd say I go to bed at around 12AM now and wake up somewhere around 7AM-9AM. About to throw away my caffeine pills.

P.S. O and there are more games, more consistently during normal hours, especially the higher the stakes you go. No more desperately trying to find a game at 5AM on Tuesday.

I've been on a crazy rotating day/ night shift schedule for a while now and as I get older the turn around from the night shift back o a normal day shift sleep schedule is getting harder and harder.
Reading this study, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14667152 , it seems that it's possible to delay the circadian cycle by carefully controlling the amount of light we see and the exact hours were exposed to the light. This study suggested that the melatonin had minimal effect ( although this study is old and it does say there much research to do on melatonin).
I'm getting desperate , has anyone tried the " Re- Timer " glasses?

Rotating night/day shift schedule? If you value your health - find another job. This will **** your health no matter what you do.