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Flow (positive psychology) Flow (positive psychology)

04-27-2016 , 01:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisshiherlis
Hi,
Yes I very much agree about the Unconscious Competence and many operations, such as rating hands and basic decisions. It's often just fast. In psychology there are paradigms that allow this to be tested. Another way could be retrospective introspection, ie you don't feel much of the thought at the time, but when you look back you realise you were aware of it.
The quote I made about playing your C-game when tired does not come from MGOP, you're right. Pretty sure it was on a video , possibly a podcast somewhere, I looked around and I think it's probably the Jonathan Little Tilt webinar which was free-to-view but which is now locked in at $97. I agree it sounds odd. In Jared's defence, he did say his poker game was terrible, which obviously means his understanding of it will be pretty bad also, so I can see why attempts to either coach poker (and I mean by that 'coach poker') or relate some random learning models to the actual process of playing poker should be often off, sometimes way off.
I dislike being negative and pointing out the flaws in the work of one guy but some of us have to do that in the face of a huge marketing effort to get everyone to say 'this is the definitive poker psychology work and you should pay $$ for the book, $$$ for webinars and $$$$$ for personal coaching.'
Starting a dedicated thread is a good idea, should force at least a reply from him. If his stuff stands up, great for him, if it doesn't, that's everyone enlightened then.
Hi Chris:

If Tendler does want to come on here and argue his case (so to speak), I'll make sure that he's treated with respect and in a professional manner.

Best wishes,
Mason
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04-27-2016 , 01:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrazor
The first and main point about tilt as you rightly state is why psychologists, hypnotists, etc can make a living in poker. And judging by the number of posts in this forum about tilt, the existing literature hasn’t really come close to either explaining or helping poker players to overcome this problem.

And I think you’re also right about the reasons why tilt still remains the number one issue for poker players – too much emphasis has been placed on shoehorning sport psychology theory into poker. It's true certain concepts have some intuitive value, and I think it’s comforting for both the poker psychologist and their customer to see that the work they are doing together is grounded in empirical research. However, the problem is that most sport psychology theory is based around trying to improve athletic performance, via techniques such as goal setting, self-talk, arousal control, etc.
Hi Elrazor:

Here's my chapter on tilt which comes from my book Real Poker Psychology. It's a very different approach from the poker mental coaches, and I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Best wishes,
Mason

A Mathematical Model of “Tilt” — Cause and Cure


Many years ago, in 1975, I finally left my home at Virginia Tech and went to work as a Mathematical Statistician for the United Stated Census Bureau. Upon arrival, I found myself assigned to an office with several well educated statisticians. This meant that there was always a statistical journal around and an article to read.

After working for a few months, my supervisor brought over the latest journal article that others had already found quite interesting. Unfortunately, I don’t remember the name of the article, who the author was, or what particular journal it was in. So to this unknown author I apologize for not giving proper credit.

The article was about a mathematical definition of humor, and it’s my conviction that tilt follows the same pathways with one major difference. However, for those who don’t know, let’s describe tilt at a poker table:

Generally, what happens is that a player, after sustaining a series of losses will begin to play in a sub-optimal manner, and sometimes this can appear to be, and truly is, quite irrational. Usually it manifests itself by the tilted player playing far too many hands, meaning many hands for which the expectation would be negative. Thus this player will tend to have results much worse than what he would normally expect.

However, by playing too many hands, the tilted player can occasionally get lucky and actually do quite well in the short run. When this happens, the tilting will almost always stop and the steamer will return to their normal game.

Other characteristics can also be seen. This can include yelling at the dealer, demanding that new cards be brought to the table, getting upset at other players, and playing in an extremely aggressive manner.

In addition, I have even noticed that on occasion tilt can carry over from one day to another. On several occasions I have observed a new player sitting down in my game, and after announcing that he was a big loser from the day before, immediately begin to play in a tilted fashion. So it’s clear to me that tilt can last a long time.


Now that we have a definition of tilt out of the way, to understand what is to follow, we need to define a continuous function and a point of discontinuity. And we’ll use this very simple definition:

Quote:
A continuous function is a line or curve that you can draw across a piece of paper from left to right without lifting up your pen or pencil.
In other words, it will just look like a line, not necessarily straight, that starts on the left side of the paper and finishes on the right. On the other hand, if it’s necessary to lift your pen or pencil up and then set it down at another point producing a gap in what you are drawing, this is a point of discontinuity, and your function is no longer continuous at that point.

Continuing with the article I read many years ago, it then argued that humor was simply points of discontinuity in the logic presented that your brain had to process. And it gave this example which to the best of my ability is repeated below:

There was a young lady who wanted to have a boyfriend. But she had some requirements. She told her friends that her future man needed to be short but well dressed. So her friends introduced her to a penguin.

Notice that this little joke is funny and it contains a point of discontinuity which we’ll call a logic disconnect. While a penguin is certainly short, and they do appear to be well dressed, this is obviously not an appropriate boyfriend. But the brain processes this discontinuity, understands it, and finds it funny. And it’s my contention that the fact that the brain can understand what has happened is what causes it to be funny.

Put another way, the brain has figured it out or solved the puzzle, and we’ll come back to this idea below. But as long as the puzzle is solved, humor appears and we find the experience enjoyable.

Three other examples of humorous discontinuities are when Groucho Marx, aka Captain Spalding, stated:

One morning, I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I’ll never know.

Or when Mae West commented:

When I’m good, I’m very, very good, but when I’m bad, I’m better.

Or when W. C. Fields said:

There is not a man in America who has not had a secret ambition to boot an infant.

It should be obvious, as in the penguin example that was in the original article I read many years ago, what the logic disconnects are. We see the logic discontinuity and also understand the error of the logic. Thus we laugh.

But what happens when a logic disconnect happens and we don’t understand the error in the logic. That is, our brain is unable to solve the puzzle that has been presented to it. Do we still find it funny?

It’s my contention that instead of humor, the brain sort of shorts out, or perhaps gets caught in an infinite logic loop similar to what can be caused by some sort of bad computer programming. This leads to frustration, and in extreme cases, irrational decisions.

Recently, I was sent a paper titled “‘This is just so unfair!:’ A qualitative analysis of loss-induced emotions and tilting in on-line poker” by Jussi Paloma, Michael Laakasuoa, and Mikko Salmela from the University of Helsinski in Finland. One of the things that they pointed out is tilted players often don’t sleep well. Could this disruption in sleep be caused by the infinite logic loop that our brain is stuck in still being active? I believe so.

When playing poker, despite what some others have claimed, I virtually never go on tilt. But there is something I do all the time where tilt occasionally gets the best of me. It’s playing tennis, and this is an activity that has been part of my life since I was a kid, and that was a long time ago.

What will occasionally happen is that I’ll miss an easy shot which is simply impossible to miss, or perhaps miss several shots in a row where I shouldn’t miss any of them, or my service toss isn’t straight when trying to serve, etc. And my mind will view these things as simply being impossible. That is, there is no logical way that any of this can happen. I’ve been playing too long and have too much skill for these events to occur. But they do occur and a logical point of discontinuity is manifested.

But unlike the humorous examples given above, there is no solution. I’m not able to realize that a penguin is not a potential boyfriend for a young lady even though he seems to meet some of the criteria, that an elephant was not really in Captain Spalding’s pajamas, that Mae West wasn’t referring to being polite and well behaved, and that we’re not suppose to be kicking little kids across the room. My logic just fails because, again, there is no solution, or at least it seems that way.

This brings us to poker. Here it’s my opinion the same problem occurs for many people. When they lose several hands in a row, or can’t understand how their aces are cracked, or have trouble dealing with running bad, it’s again a logic disconnect. To the person on tilt, in their mind, the events that just occurred are simply impossible, and thus their logical circuitry, so to speak, gets locked up as the information that their brain needs to process enters some sort of infinite loop.

So what’s the solution to this? It’s simple. Understand poker and the probabilistic events that govern it better. Once you get a grasp of the fact that your aces can be beat, it’s very possible, and eventually quite likely, to lose several hands in a row, and running bad for long periods of time can and will happen, tilt goes away.

In fact, when you see good players who are known not to tilt suffer a horrendous beat, they usually chuckle. Their minds have the solution at the end of the discontinuity. So instead of processing it as frustration, they process all the chips going the wrong way as an “elephant in my pajamas.” That is, they see these events as being funny, not frustrating.

On the other hand, you’ll occasionally hear about a player, usually because he has won a tournament or two, who claims to have never read a poker book. While this may be literally true, it’s also my observation that many of these people are steamers and do poorly in the cash games. I also don’t think their poor results here and lack of studying is coincidental, and suspect that their constant tilting is from an incomplete knowledge of poker, and an unwillingness to gain that knowledge.

On our forums at www.twoplustwo.com, I have written many times that understanding the game of poker well is the best cure for tilt. Now most of you can understand my reasoning behind this. Tilt is not a “fight or flight” experience as some people have proposed. (If it were, we would see lots of fights in the poker room, and a poker room fight is something that only happens on very rare occasions.) It’s actually something humorous where the logic that your mind requires gets hung up. And once you acquire enough information that your mind won’t get hung up in an infinite logic loop, tilt should be a thing of the past.
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04-30-2016 , 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrazor
it depends how you conceptualize "energy" but yes, they are similar concepts.

Flow, and Hannin's Individual Zones of Optimal Functioning (IZOF; or "The Zone") are essentially revisions of Yerkes-Dodson's inverted U:



So, peak performance is achieved when anxiety levels are high, but not too high. Unsurprisingly, there is a lots of research for it's application to sports.

As far as it's relationship to poker goes, I personally don't think it has much utility. When I play poker, I like to be as relaxed and calm as possible. Raising anxiety (or "energy" - however you want to conceptualise it) at least implicity moves us towards a "fight or flight" response, which when you examine the physiological and emotional reactions will in my opinion increase the chances of tilt.
I think the lowest end of the arousal scale would be debilitating depression and the highest end would be a nervous breakdown. It makes sense that your performance in anything would suffer as you get closer to either of these extremes.
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05-01-2016 , 03:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth
What will occasionally happen is that I’ll miss an easy shot which is simply impossible to miss, or perhaps miss several shots in a row where I shouldn’t miss any of them, or my service toss isn’t straight when trying to serve, etc. And my mind will view these things as simply being impossible. That is, there is no logical way that any of this can happen. I’ve been playing too long and have too much skill for these events to occur. But they do occur and a logical point of discontinuity is manifested.
Hi Mason,

This is what I would describe as unconscious competence. When you reach this level if performance, then your actions are as automatic as driving a car, or even speaking. However, when people are faced with exceptionally stressful situations, such as speaking in public (apparently the number one fear of Americans - #2 is death) then even an action as fully automated as speaking can become very effortful and disjointed.

With regards to the rest of your essay, I think it's an interesting concept, however the main criticism I would level at this type of thinking, along with some of the other poker psychology books is that the arguments are for the most part atheoretical. If i wanted to really try and get to grips with tilt at a psychological level, I would explore the wealth of gambling addiction studies, along with clinical and sociological anger and emotion, such as road rage. I think road rage is particularly interesting from an online players perspective, as you are essentially in the same cocoon. There are lots of parallels between the two, and I think you could draw some meaningful conclusions exploring these types of similar events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebisi
I think the lowest end of the arousal scale would be debilitating depression and the highest end would be a nervous breakdown. It makes sense that your performance in anything would suffer as you get closer to either of these extremes.
These various performance models of anxiety are purely from a performance perspective, and not clinical. They are also temporary states, so the level of stress and anxiety only lasts as long as the stressful situation, and once removed from that environment, the symptoms are alleviated. In contrast, depression and nervous breakdowns are both permanent clinical states and largely independent of temporary environmental events.
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05-01-2016 , 10:44 PM
Some very interesting discussions in this thread. I think one of the key messages that resonates with me is that you need to be in a state where you're aroused, but not so much that it gets to the point where this arousal turns into stress and anxiety which can have straining effects on your thoughts. Calm positive thinking can quickly transform into anxious negative thinking so it's all about getting the balance just right in your flow of thinking at the poker tables, or in any activity you are serious about; be it a sport, game or academic pursuit.
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06-14-2016 , 07:10 PM
Great thread! I Love flowing! The TedTalk was a great watch!
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