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Old 04-15-2017, 04:10 PM   #1
dark_horse
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Spade Female opponent: manipulation or smoke and mirrors?

Last night I final tabled a small stakes nightly tournament at my local casino. Once we were down to the final two tables, a middle aged woman in a leather jacket took the seat to my right. We were the two big stacks at the table. For whatever reason, I more often try to make a point to say hello when a woman sits next to me, so I did.

I quickly had the read that she was a decent, solid and aggressive player. But it didn't take long for some hands to go down where I aggressed her out of pots. I didn't notice it as much as she did, apparently, since after the 3rd or so hand of this she quietly remarked that she thinks I have a problem with women.

I found this very amusing but also confusing. Why would she say that? I barely said anything to her, and was polite/quiet (as I usually am) since she sat. I'm usually quiet at the table because my verbal game isn't good and I believe I would be giving up more than gaining by speaking. But there are times when you just have to interact. Anyhow, she was having a hard time winning pots we were involved in together but it was purely a matter of position and cards. She clearly didn't see it that way. Or did she?

Then we get to the final table, redraw, and she is seated to my left. Whenever I won a pot without showing down (regardless if she was involved), she'd make a point to remark that she didn't believe me. She said out loud each time that she thought I was bluffing. It basically turned into a joke. I would just laugh, "yep, I never have anything" as I rake the chips.

There were a couple big pots between us where I had strong hands and felt those were opportunities to stack her, since she "seemed" to never believe me. But she laid down each time to my big turn bets. And before deciding to bet the turn, she would stare at me like she wanted to eat my children. Super awkward. But classic stuff, I guess.

After the tournament was over and I had some time to think, I realized that maybe she was saying these things to get me to stop being so aggressive versus her. Was this a classic manipulation attempt? Was she in fact telling me that I needed to ramp up the aggression? Did she manipulate me into playing more honestly as the session got later?

Probably overthinking, as usual, but this time out loud.
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Old 04-16-2017, 10:21 AM   #2
Bob148
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Re: Female opponent: manipulation or smoke and mirrors?

Some people take cards personally, maybe she's one of those.

-----

Reminds me of once upon a time playing live 4/8 limit holdem. The guy to my immediate right seemed ok, at least preflop, as he only raised or folded first in and never coldcalled anything first in after a raise. I pegged him as "slightly knowledgeable; probably had default opening ranges based on position memorized; probably a slightly tight tag. Then for a stretch, it seemed like every time he raised preflop first in, I was getting strong hands. After the fourth time I 3 bet him preflop within 10 minutes, he asks me, "so you 3 bet to isolate the weak player, me?" as I 3 bet QJo in the small blind vs his button open raise. I replied, "nah man I'm just getting good hands." which I said almost simultaneously as the flop came out: 9TKr I bet the flop and he folded. So I showed my hand and said, "see?"
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Old 04-16-2017, 11:16 PM   #3
Howard Beale
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Re: Female opponent: manipulation or smoke and mirrors?

Here's what's happening: The woman is used to men being kind and deferential to her and certainly NOT confrontational and aggressive and she doesn't like it. I can't come close to remembering how often a woman player has given me the cold stare for trying to get every cent that I could out of her and most male player's 'problem' w/ women is that they DON'T try to get every cent out of them.

Don't sweat this at all, just play poker.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:20 AM   #4
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Female opponent: manipulation or smoke and mirrors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dark_horse View Post
Last night I final tabled a small stakes nightly tournament at my local casino. Once we were down to the final two tables, a middle aged woman in a leather jacket took the seat to my right. We were the two big stacks at the table. For whatever reason, I more often try to make a point to say hello when a woman sits next to me, so I did.

I quickly had the read that she was a decent, solid and aggressive player. But it didn't take long for some hands to go down where I aggressed her out of pots. I didn't notice it as much as she did, apparently, since after the 3rd or so hand of this she quietly remarked that she thinks I have a problem with women.

I found this very amusing but also confusing. Why would she say that? I barely said anything to her, and was polite/quiet (as I usually am) since she sat. I'm usually quiet at the table because my verbal game isn't good and I believe I would be giving up more than gaining by speaking. But there are times when you just have to interact. Anyhow, she was having a hard time winning pots we were involved in together but it was purely a matter of position and cards. She clearly didn't see it that way. Or did she?

Then we get to the final table, redraw, and she is seated to my left. Whenever I won a pot without showing down (regardless if she was involved), she'd make a point to remark that she didn't believe me. She said out loud each time that she thought I was bluffing. It basically turned into a joke. I would just laugh, "yep, I never have anything" as I rake the chips.

There were a couple big pots between us where I had strong hands and felt those were opportunities to stack her, since she "seemed" to never believe me. But she laid down each time to my big turn bets. And before deciding to bet the turn, she would stare at me like she wanted to eat my children. Super awkward. But classic stuff, I guess.

After the tournament was over and I had some time to think, I realized that maybe she was saying these things to get me to stop being so aggressive versus her. Was this a classic manipulation attempt? Was she in fact telling me that I needed to ramp up the aggression? Did she manipulate me into playing more honestly as the session got later?

Probably overthinking, as usual, but this time out loud.
Hi horse:

The one bit of information that you do have is that she folded to your big bets. This implies, but only a little bit, that she felt her comments would reduce your bluffing frequency to below optimal. So did you bluff less against her?

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 04-17-2017, 04:11 AM   #5
floattheboat
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Re: Female opponent: manipulation or smoke and mirrors?

I agree with Mason's assessment.
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Old 04-17-2017, 05:48 AM   #6
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Re: Female opponent: manipulation or smoke and mirrors?

I don't think that her remark was reaction to your play, probably more to your quietness. I mean...... If she played decent amount of hours, she have seen it all in terms of aggression, but a guy at poker tables just being quiet when a woman is around..... It is rather rare occurrence. May be she thought that you are so quiet, because her presence made you feel uncomfortable.

May be it was said with tongue in cheek just to tease you to a conversation.

Anyway don't sweat it.
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Old 05-06-2017, 01:09 AM   #7
Ofigella
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Re: Female opponent: manipulation or smoke and mirrors?

Most likely manipulation if she's not a newbie. I've played with maniacs and teased them like that. What for? Well, my only intention is to seem stupid. As if I take things personally.
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Old 05-14-2017, 03:20 PM   #8
QuietAmerican
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Re: Female opponent: manipulation or smoke and mirrors?

OP, maybe she was flirting with you.
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:09 PM   #9
Tuma
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Re: Female opponent: manipulation or smoke and mirrors?

I think it was a playful joke. Poker players are not known to be especially nice during play, gotta toughen up a little bit, op.

Sportsmanship does matter, a lot. But this was outside the realm of indecency.
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