i wan't to give another spin to the popular belief that gamblers gamble because they love the rush of even losing, that many gamble to lose!Many psychologists explain the gambler phenomena with simple theory's that people who are addicted to gambling hate themselves, feel like they don't deserve their money and the like. While some of these premises may be true, I personally think these explanations are much too broad and don't apply to most of the gamblers I have gotten to know.
Having been around many gamblers in my lifetime, I've come to the opinion that most gamblers lose because they're simply ignorant. In this day and age of so much information, it's amazing to me that there are so many people out there who are so ill informed, and this doesn't only apply to politics. I've met many a poker player who doesn't know for example who, say, Negreanu is. Iv'e sat at a cash game with people who didn't know basic poker terms like open ender or free roll. Iv'e met countless people who play games like roulette and have no idea about the odds. I knew one guy who showed me a whole strategy/system of how to win at roulette. And, he was totally convinced that he discovered the winning strategy and that's why I should lend him money!
So, I'm convinced that most people who become degenerate gamblers are people who don't want to lose at all. They are simply, for the most part, stupid, uneducated poor people who see gambling as the only way to get out of their poverty.
Would appreciate to hear all you alls opinions!

Degenerate gamblers meaning gamble without proper bankroll or knowledge?

Sent from my ASUS_Z00VD using Tapatalk

Can you at least split your paragraphs, grammar check, and spell check, hate to be the small-n nazi here, but c'mon dude.

Yeah, you're right. I sort of boggled it. I had this subject for a long time on my mind and just rushed it when I finally decided to write it.

Definition of a degenerate gambler is someone who gambles without proper bankroll but the two go hand in hand. One gambles without proper bankroll because lack of knowledge is a big reason. That's what I was trying to get at and to try to dispel the notion that most gamblers gamble because they somehow want to lose.
There have been studies of lower income neighborhoods buying more lottery tickets than higher income. For many lower income people, gambling is one of the few ways they see if improvement.
Sorry for late response.

I have always thought of a degenerate gambler as one who is addicted to gambling; so much that it is his main pastime; as long as he has money he will gamble.

No it isn't. If you have $20 to gamble for during a month and you chose to gamble one evening at $10 nl, instead of playing $2nl, it doesn't make you a degenerate gambler. Gambling for more that you can afford to lose is what makes you a degenerate.

Well said aces. Gambling for more than you can afford to lose is basically the same as gambling without a bankroll. Someone who gambles without a bankroll is simply someone who takes their paycheck and runs to the casino.
Again, the point I'm trying to get across is that many people of lower income, thus the inability to have a proper bankroll, see gambling as their only way to make some meaningful money. Lot's of times their attitude is that if they lose, they didn't have much to begin with. Then, there are people who are simply ignorant and who gamble without having any idea of what they're really doing.
Both types feel like they're doing something to win money and are not gambling because they want to lose as so many supposed experts keep reiterating.

Hello,

this is my first post here, I've been to this forum several times in the past but never registered, and I felt like now is the time, because I can give my two cents on the subject.

I am a gambling addict, and I will remain a gambling addict for the rest of my life, much like a heroin addict will, which is what I compare my addiction to.

This might sound like I got some counseling or help of some sort, which led me to make this affirmation about myself, but I didn't, I've had a lot of time to think about myself and my actions and their consequences regarding my gambling addiction. Really, a lot of time.

I am here now because I'd like to confirm the thoughts and affirmations I've read in this thread.

To start with... Yes, I am a gambling addict because I never took the time to truly study the game.
But I did study the games I've been playing, but never, as I should, meaning, seriously. Which as result can lead to even worse gambling, because I did study, and I do know several concepts, but because I always stop like after 10 to 30 minutes of studying, when I do study, which is very rare, the illusion of being very knowledgeable is created.
I still have, right now, 20 Gb of poker videos of all sorts on my computer, training videos/hand review vids/challenges vids/teaching vids with everything you can think about poker learning (not tv-shows or tv-aired tourneys)... Aswell as 360 poker books, that total 2, almost 3 gb, on my computer, that I can open right now and start to read if I want.

I've watched some videos, I enjoy them a lot, on the other hand I can't read read books on my laptop, I never got used to reading a book on the computer. But I have always wanted to print the books and read them, never did. I have always wanted to look for a coach and pay to be coached: never did.
I have always wanted to watch every single video I have to the end: never did.
I have always wanted to read all the books I have to the end: never did, not even a single one.
I have always wanted to make a bankroll management plan: never did.
I have always wanted to have a grinding-plan, like the times I was profitable, and keep up with it: never did.

Let me tell you why, the urge to start playing/gambling is too strong.

And when I was completely and miserably broke and I had to wait for more money, I'd rather numb myself down, like a bear that is hibernating, pass thru my broke time the quickest possible, so that I could take a shot at it again, sure I'd go and read/watch some more, but the time took more to pass than if I was "hibernating" thru life waiting for the next paycheck, to gamble, to feel alive again.

But I always knew, I am gambling away everything because I don't study, and because I don't find someone to teach me, to interact with that loves the game as much as I do, because I don't know anyone that I can share my passion with, and that knows more than me and can teach me.

I am a fu lazy idiot, and I keep at it... And this brings me to the next point. Why? Do I keep at it, in this manner?

Because I have been capable of winning a great deal of money just like I am right now!

Next point... Because that money I have been capable of winning, had I withdrawn it, would've been of a huge help, for my mother and brother that is struggling immensely financially. (Only to end up hurting them more because with the little I had before I could've helped a little, but then, and now, I can't, now I am also in need of help)

Then I started chasing losses, and stopped paying what I need to pay or else I will have problems with the government and the police, and I might be expelled of the country I am emigrated in (which is what scares me the most right now).

But why did I chase losses? Well, because right now as I am speaking about this, I want to give it a shot again, with the biggest sum I can, all in the same buy-in at the same time, because after I double/triple/quadruple/(yep, there's no stopping now, until of course it goes back to nothing or I fall asleep and have to make a break, only to go at it again asap), after that I can finally withdraw the miraculous help and tranquility I would wish for to the genie even if he only gave me one wish.

Has you may have noticed there's another point, the eagerness, the energy, the hyper-active energy that boosts, and lifts me up like a potent drug...

And it even has side-effects to stoppage of usage, and that's another point, because when I stop using, I can't be without using, and for the first moments, like days, there's nothing else in my body and mind other than, how could I get some of that again.

But then I realized, wait a minute, this is not good, this is really bad, I just destroyed my life and everything I had and that I could possibly have right now, and there's no going back...

But you know what degenerate gambling is = I can't put my money on that anymore, I don't want to, I never will! That's it...
And before you go to pay the debt you were warned you have to pay the beginning of that month, that's right, and it even hurts me just to write =
you withdraw every fu thing, the fu amount of the debt, and go gamble it, I will double it, and then when I pay the debt, I will still have the same money, and I will not be without any money! Ye right...
And I am there, sad inside, destroyed inside, gambling, and not wanting to be there. You want a recipe for disaster with your own assets, here it is, I just wrote it.

Being a degenerate gambler, I have given priority to gambling above all else, literally, all else, even when completely broke, without a single dollar, when I got enough money again, I'd keep on give priority to gambling above all else.

Need food, only have 50, ok, what can I play with, and what is the cheapest and longest food I can survive with, that I can save the most money to gamble?
Yep, that's an actual thought, and that's actually/really happening.

Hmmm, I've never been without smoking, but if I buy cigarettes, I will not have that money to gamble, ok, I'll stop smoking, I'll just ask other people that I know that smoke, or even if need random strangers on the street for a cigarette.

I will have vacation, and I can buy a passage to my country right now, but I can't go face my mother and tell her I didn't save any money, ok, I will gamble everything, and then I buy the passage, because then I can go home on vacation and make my mum happy. Ye right... Turns out I will have to lie to my mum and tell her I found another job right now and I won't have vacation for when I told I would. Because I don't have that money anymore, looks like this is going to be a ****ty vacation all alone with little to no food.

Yep! Wanna know something else, that wasn't only one vacation! That's right, "fool me once, fool me twice"... But with a degenerate gambler, until he starts to think straight again, there's no number for the end of "fool me".

Now that I am in the situation I am, and I am at 25 years/almost 26, I am starting to face this differently:
There will always be the luck factor, and I kept trying to outsmart/outplay thru skill (even tho I am not great and not even close) when badbeat is a term, when badbeat is a term of your investment, it's best not to put everything you have in that investment, meaning, at least the way I invested, it's very very very risky, and not worth it (because of everything that constitutes a bad way of investing your money in this, which I did, and will do again if I keep insisting);

This is an addiction, but in the same time, is something I love, and will always love and take pleasure off. I was recently struck by an ex-heroin-addict, which happens to be one of the truest friends I've ever had that told me something I already believed in, just not with so much strength as I believe now after hearing him telling me... That I can always go and gamble, just not everyday, and not everything, sometimes I will need it, or want it really bad, and 10 bucks or something like once a year or something like that, will not hurt me like this.

Along with this friend, I've had a friend just a couple of days ago, that his one best friends I ever had and really truthful and with no problems in speaking his thoughts the way he wants, speak with me after years of us being out of contact, to whom I told everything I've been thru, that also struck me differently than everybody else, with simple short sentences, that only make me agree and want to change.

I also start now to feel I want other things more than I want to gamble, which for a long time the only thing I wanted of my life 24/7 was to gamble and nothing else.

I will not be able to change my life gambling, never, and if I could, now, it would be more hard, than the chances I have right now of changing my life for the better without gambling at all, I don't need it, and I don't want it anymore.

I realized something Nepeeme, regarding your ignorance theory, which I agreed too and focused in right at the beginning of my 1st reply in this thread.

It's that in essence, at the root, is a sickening unconscious willingness to gamble, that triggers everything else that you, and I, and everybody else mentioned that constitutes the gambling addict, be it degenerate or not.

Being the lack of self-control, along with the mentioned ignorance, what makes the degenerate (which ignorance is not more important than the ability for self-control [or lack of it], because some degenerate gamblers do know, and do have optimal knowledge of the game, but manage to end up broke anyways because of that lack).

add: short answer. Gambling is an addiction that forms to alleviate stress, but can wind-up feeding on itself because the losses add to the stress. Those suffering from gambling addiction confuse the bars of the prison they make for themselves with the exits, and they're liable to blow-up, blow their own finances, and other people's finances in their wake. But, disease? I do not see it that way. In a mild form, you will subconsciously want to "itch" to alleviate this mildly dulling agony that comes back when you don't play. But, it can turn into a home-made prison for your mind.

---------
I skimmed the first one, and I feel I get the overall picture. Gambling addiction is a very real phenomenon, but I do not see it as a disease. It is a coping mechanism towards what makes you nervous. I'll see if I can dig-up the link. But, players are constantly shuffling their chips, and other idle behavior, because they are nervous about something else.

Perhaps if you can figure-out what makes you nervous to stop gambling. Perhaps you can become the type of personality to thrive on nerves so you can win. My focus would be to figure-out how to win in your shoes, and I would start with my first opponent, myself. An easy way to do this is to test your resolve, and that is with physical activity, excersize, running, swimming, biking, or weight lifting. You simply cannot win at poker without the resolve to win at poker. Watching videos, while helpful, will not turn your psychology into the psychology of a winner. If you are able to accomplish diet and exercise, then you have proven yourself that these are games that you can win at, and the reason you can win at that is because you have a hidden resolve to win, and then you realize that you only want to play games that you can win at.

Hidden resolve will take you very far, but it will not make you a winning player. Have you spent the time to figure out the odds of being dealt a pat flush, or a pat straight, or such? Take some time at the probability forum. Understand what they are saying, and then when you are comfortable, you have accomplished the next step, mathematics. If this part becomes to tough for you, then you are better off sticking to something else you can win at, such as buying and selling on e-bay, etc.

Then I recommend starting to read the technical manuals. Read David Skalansky's primer on poker, The Theory of Poker, and have a personal copy. Also have a personal copy on the specific game you want to play, either small stakes no-limit hold'em, or small stakes fixed limit hold'em (4/8 or above, below is basically rake trap). And you know, possibly fixed limit O8, which has attracted worse players than hold'em in the past decade, though smaller pools of players.

As you play, try to remember as much about each hand as you can, and perhaps even try memory games in your spare time. Work on game comprehension. Learn how to count pots EXACTLY until it becomes like finger-waving while you're in a pot. Learn how to observe one opponent, until you see them all out of the corner of your eyes.

You may also find it helpful to journal, or record keep, but it is somewhat optional. Exercise, however, is very very good, and you'll find it to be a valuable substitute from when you run bad. And you can use the time wisely to reflect on how to perfect your operation, and what your priorities are.

Also, while you are out of action, continue to study and get on the program. You'll gradually see yourself as a silent killer.

tldr version: People play because they are stress. Playing re-creationally subtracts from life stress, becoming addicted can add to stress. You will find diet and exercise very valuable substitutes and ways to guage how you are handling stress. If you're eating instead of exercizing, then you are not handling it very well, and you can expect your poker to suffer. There are pros who are out-of-shape, very out-of-shape, and that's fine for them. But, if you're having serious trouble with gambling addiction then finding other ways to handle stress and building a winning foundation is the most important thing.

If you put all the effort into guiding this stress into Eustress

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustress

then you just have to fold it up, and do something like building a house of cards while listen to Coldplay.'s Viva la Vida, and find something else. I have found computer programming to match the itch as it were, and I've seen the full-blown cases who go way up and then way down. They've essentially programmed themselves to enjoy the cage that is entirely invisible to them, and visible to everyone around them.

Reading, recommend as well The Art of War by Sun-Tzu, and Nietzsche.

Damn leavesofliberty!

Thank you very much for your answers, they are truly helpful and carry great content! I am really thankful to you that you took the time to speak about this with me _o_

I had never heard about eustress! And that feels inspiring...
It reminded me of when I was winning, and was playing very good for the course of days, and I noticed my nerves were different than usual when I was winning those times, meaning whenever I got suck out, a bad beat and I lost a significant amount, the majority of times I would feel angry/stressed out/tilt, but those times I would just face differently, not caring at all, I was in the future, in the objective of winning, and nothing I could loose would make get out of that zone, which resulted in profit,

but I also noticed that whenever I faced the game like that, was when I was happy with myself and others, and satisfied both physically and mentally because I had other activities like my day-to-day job that made me focus entirely on that, and be focused 100%, which made me get back to the game, on a totally different way of being, resulting in that eustress!

And I always thought that's "the zone", and feel frustrated, because it's damn hard to achieve that, and the degenerate addiction sinks in trying to achieve it, when in truth I didn't make anything to achieve it.

I've always been a great fan of philosophy, and I've read about Nietzsche and Sun Tzu before, and some things they've written, but never a book of them, even tho I always wanted. That sure is something I wish for my life, to find those books and read them, because I feel that's life changing.

Even now, I always thought about life and the view of God as Nietzsche saw it also, and I was truly amazed to find Nietzsche was the only other person, that even wrote about it, that viewed this things, the same way I do! I've read several stuff of him and Sun Tzu, but never a whole book, which is as I said a wish of mine since many years.

And I will surely search that...

Other thing I will invest now, is starting to learn Kundalini Yoga, I found a center by coincidence passing by, next to where I live, and I have always been interested in learning and doing yoga, much because of the kundalini aspect of it, and the best is the center is kundalini focused! So I got to give it a shot!

You are damn right, and I wish I could have the equilibrium you have!

But you know what I've always said it's my problem, my zodiac sign is libra, but I am a different/unusual libra, I am that kind of libra, that you put one elephant on one weight, and a feather in the other, and the feather will go down, it will actually seem it weights more than the elephant. lol

So, it's a struggle! Even tho it's my dream to achieve the balance spoken of in yin and yang philosophy.

I have felt for a long time I got to make that stoppage and dedicate myself only to learning, but the damn addiction and unconscious, delusional and (dumb) negative view of the state of my own life, never allowed me to.

Now it's the time, and I intend to do it for years, because I will not be able to have savings if I continue or get back at it after weeks or months... Now I also view the game as something I don't crave for, I rather do something else, even if it's pointless useless and not enjoyable, than put my money on it again, and loose one single hand.

But inside of me, I am afraid, terribly afraid, I live scared I will turn into a gambling zombie again, and will do it again, this thought scares me everyday now, that's why after that I keep telling myself this is the worst thing I like, and that I have to not like it, to hate it, and i'm starting to hate it like that, but my fear is there, together with the lack of control wanting to possess me again... But it's like bad tasty food craving, whenever I can, I do it, I keep doing it, but now I do it without my money, I do it for the fun, it's less fun, so I end up leaving it more quickly and I go search for something else I like, and that's my secret for recovery I think.

Thank you again very much, all the best for you friend, I'm sure you will continue to be rewarded with your life, you seem to be a role model.

No problem. Definately check-out

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Learning-.../dp/0743277465

It's actually taken me a long time to find balance, because I have an addictive personality, and I *believe* it stems from nervousness. I also am a fan of Socrates, and a big believer in the self-examination process. I think having multiple planks to your foundation assist that process. My thoughts on psychology are evolving. I am, of course, not a professional psychologist. A professional psychologist will tell you to quit, play in your limits, and etc. I suppose I think most people in the predicament you describe can win, but they lack the will to change stress into something that can work for them.

And if you do balance right, you at least will not *lose* at poker, and you'll always be *freerolling* for more chips. Also, working hard is not enough. You do have to have some raw ability. But, with balance, anyone with average ability can beat the $4/$8 Limit Hold'em.

Hats off to you to doing Yoga!

It's the lack of will to do what's necessary, and then the lack of discipline, that make for the disaster I am in now.

You have kept talking about the limits one should play, that you make me be much more certain of what I have thought in the past has been another crucial mistake I've been doing, whenever I'd loose significantly, or reach the point I have a very small bankroll, I keep pushing it in the smaller stakes for smaller and smaller profits, and that's not good at all, I even feel I play worse and less focused because of that.

I did good at 1/2 PL O and even at 2.5/5 with the right eustress and bankroll for it,,, but I tilt if I bring something negative of my life to the game, and I go up stakes, tilting...
Then the addiction will keep me on the lowest stakes, lower and lower, and I keep putting less and less buy-ins, but more and more times, and this is more easy to loose everything, than with the proper investment on the proper stakes!

But there's two sides to the proper investment on the proper stakes, while I realized that and I decided to do it the right way, I was still addicted to gambling and tilting and worried, but now, with much more investment! So, the last time I lost everything I lost it much more quickly. There's also a proper mindset to achieve before everything else.

Regarding yoga, I have to find something else forcefully and quickly! I've been doing gambling and nothing else, and "hibernating" between gambling and the rest of my day-to-day for years now (watching movies/tv-shows/memes when there's no money, and working), my only interest and motivation has been this, to burn money, little by little, then huge sums at the same time (huge, compared to what I earn).

Now I keep thinking what will I do that I will like and that will keep me busy everyday, all day, because I don't want to be anymore alone without nothing to do, because I will want to gamble again, just for the sake of doing something that I enjoy, which is one of the main reasons for what I have been doing, because I don't have anything else to do...

So I will do the yoga, and I also want to start to go the gym to gain more muscle, because I am very skinny. And starting to read books, also seems now, that we have been talking about them, a great way to pass my time, and it's also something I have wanted, so there I have it, one more thing to keep me busy... And this continuous search for stuff that I like to keep me busy from gambling is what I hope will help me.

Sadly, because of my own crazyness I will have to restrict any money from going towards this, for a loooooong time. Well, I will continue to be able to invest in learning, and that's really what I should do anyways.

I had never heard about Josh Waitzkin! Thank you. This is very interesting. I am very interested in remarkable lives and their stories, and this sir has that, so definitely worth checking out, I will not forget this. (I bookmark the link for future purchase, so, ty)

My concern with micros is two-fold

1. RAKE - rake tends to be really bad.
2. Opportunity Cost - Working, or reading a book is higher short-term or long-term EV, respectively.

Also, you can learn discipline along the way as you save your money, and read a book, and gather up that $3000 with discipline. There's, and I can't emphasize this enough, gonna be a HUGE temptation to play under-rolled. Simply wait for 300BB if it's fixed limit or the 20-50 buy-ins or whatever is recommended for the NL/PL games. I know PLO is higher variance, so more buy-ins. And, game selection is very important too. It helps to become a night owl.

The life-tilt can be a real problem, and I recommend seeing a professional if you are prone to life-tilt before coming back to the game, and get that **** worked out.

Ok my friend, better days will come! (I hope ) All good to you

Every single time I have lost everything, I leveled up stakes where I put everything at the same time, and then bye bye

Hi thelover. I have been absent from the thread I started, so to speak, lately and just now saw your posts. I'm a little overwhelmed with all the material and will need time to digest it and give you some halfway adequate answers so I just wanted to say a few things quickly.
A) be aware I am no trained professional but simply a poker player like yourself
B) happy leavesofliberty is offering his opinions and thus helping you
It seems to me that you actually fall into the category I was trying to describe.
It seems you have some financial situations that you are desperately trying to fix through gambling/poker. You are obviously playing to win, not to lose.
You are making an effort but are still failing. Each failure pushes you towards more desperation and makes your situation worse.
So the question is, why are you failing despite the fact that you acquired some skills. Unfortunately, one answer may be that despite your best efforts you might simply be no good. Not everyone is cut out for it just like not everyone can be a pro athlete. But, I don't believe that that's the answer.
I think the most likely answer to why you are losing is because you put yourself under immense pressure to absolutely have to win to be able to help your mother/brother out. You was playing with scared money. You simply set yourself up to lose with ought realizing it. No way can win at poker under those circumstances .
My friend, this is the secret that I discovered for my self after almost 20 years of playing. To be a winning player, you have to play for pennies. You know when you walk down the street and you see a penny on the ground and you don't bother to bend down to pick it up. You say to yourself "It's only a lousy penny". When you play poker, you can't care about the money. It has to be insignificant to you if you win or if you lose a pot. What only matters is making the right play. Only then do you achieve a place of poker tranquility, a place of inner peace. It's not easy to get to this place, I know but it's the only way to become a successful player that I know. At least, after all the study and dedication, it's the final step we all have to take. It's what took me to the next level.
I hope this was some help. I'll read your posts over again and see if I can come up with anything more helpful.

Op is correct that gamblers are largely ignorant. I'd say many are somewhat spoiled. And they believe the poker gods will hand them money as other's do. The addict is different, and the addiction can be very powerful.

Money management is what's killing this guy. Should consider being upfront and say that you're addict to your family. You should manage your money like your diet and exercise. Diet is conceptually a resource management game.

Playing poker well is a very steep climb, and the temptation is to take short cuts. But the goal should be a game of figuring out what your talents are, and how to combine them with the universe. Poker is not the only rock, or the best rock even. It is merely the shiniest rock.

Poker is also a game where IQ matters. It matters in all fields, but being able to think abstractly, and theoretically helps a lot in poker. Being able to do the math helps a lot. If you can't do the math, then you are at a great disadvantage.

Hi, thanks for your answer, and ofc leavesofliberty also.

You understood very well what's happening with me Nepeeme.

I agree with everything you said.

And leavesofliberty also understands everything as it is.

Between us 3, some of the differences that we have might be that I don't have any self-control at all, managing my money.

I was thinking this was going to be the first month of this year, I would reach the last day of the month, with money, but 3 or 4 days ago, I did it again...

I managed to deposit a total of 200$, of what I wanted to be 25$ monthly-limit... I managed to take those 200$, to 3900$, from friday to saturday.

And then I managed to loose everything. And re-deposit ALL of my own money, and, loose it ALL.

The time does not fly, the time teleports itself at the speed of light when I'm gambling.

The human necessities cease to exist almost completely. Eating/drinking/going to the toilet/sleeping, were almost to non-existent from friday to monday.

Now, it's depression time, one more time, and survival time, because I didn't save money not even for food.

You need to rely on your family, tell them what has happened and cut yourself off completely.