Hey all,

First time poster in these forums. I've come seeking some advice. Currently I consider myself to be a semi-pro 1/2 player and I've been having some trouble dealing with a downswing for the past 2 months. I'm currently down about $1750 over the past 90+ hours of play. A lot of this has been getting in the money good and being outdrawn. I would say that about $500 of the losses are the result of bad play.

I just don't know who to turn to advice during these times.. I keep coming to the games with a fresh mentality but find myself being beaten down by the deck every time.

I can give a few examples from my most recent session tonight. Have K9 limp on the SB after 2 limps, BB makes it 10 to go, 2 callers and I call. Flop com the bes J83, PF raiser makes it 20 to go, one call, I call, turn is a Q, I check, it checks thru, river is a 4 and I bet 40, get raised 100 on top by the pf raiser. I fold, he says he doesn't have the ace (lol)
Later I reload a couple hundred more, make it 11 to go with AT get two callers. Flop is AA3, I make it 20 to go, get one caller, turn is 8, I make it $40 to go, get one caller, river is 4, I check, player now bets $130, tight passive, I let it go, very next hand I get AK in the BB, UTG makes it $7 to go, gets 4 callers, I 3bet to $42, UTG thinks for about 10 seconds and makes it $65 more to go, folds around to me, I shove, snap called. Run into AA and lose.

I don't think that my play has been that bad during the course of this downswing... I really do feel as though that a lot of this is just bad variance... I'm wondering how you guys have dealt with this in your poker careers and I am open to any sort of questions and criticisms you might have.

Thanks for reading and may the flop be with you guys... cause I sure as hell know it isn't with me lately..

SyS

Change Venue, road trip. Learn PLO or 2-7tdlb ... something more complex than hold'em.

My personal favorite is to get totally medicated and watch poker training vids. Weep as everything makes sense and each topic is a new epiphany. You wonder why you didn't realize or figure that out 5 years ago. Go to sleep and dream of how you're going to own the poker world with you're knew learned skills.

Wake up in the morning and remember you went out and had AsKh tattoo'ed on your cheek.

My own approach is to play through it. I get super-determined to get back on track, and so I actually end up putting in more hours than when I'm winning. It's gotta break sooner or later.

More importantly:

In retrospect, I think downswings are a tremendous learning opportunity. Hands we lose tend to be much tougher hands to play than those we win. In my last downswing, I feel like a learned a great deal about when to get away from a hand -- and as a result I think my long-term win rate went up noticeably once the downswing finally subsided.

So try to use it as a learning experience.

Sometimes, I do actually play through it like MA suggests and it can work. But most professionals will recommend taking a break. And it is the more disciplined and intelligent approach I think. Because it might be variance but there is a good chance that it is not. The game is such that we can never know if it is bad cards or ourselves but I always err on the side of looking at myself first. Also, I think that you should ask yourself things like, are you looking after yourself? Are you eating? Exercising? Getting enjoyment from things away from the poker table? Are you happy? Are you enjoying playing or is it starting to be just a way to make money? These are all signs that I have that show me that I need to take a break.

Gael - I do play PLO but the problem I have is there aren't any PLO games running that I'm aware of. I've tried changing venues when I've went out to play.. going to the casino, going to a home game, going to a club game, underground game, etc. I have been medicating and watching strategy videos again more recently and I feel that it will be helpful for my game. I've only been playing for about 4 years so I still think I have a lot to learn.

MA- Interestingly enough I had your same train of thought. I decided to hit the tables hard for a week and increase my volume. I went from about 15 hours per week to 35 hours per week. My sessions went like this.

1- +$650 4.5 hrs
2- $0 5 hrs
3- -$171 5 hrs
4- $0 4.5 hrs
5- -$195 4.5 hrs
6- -$400 1.75 hrs
7- $165 5.75 hrs
8- -$500 2.75 hrs

So my last 8 sessions I'm down $451 over 33.75hrs.. I honestly feel that I haven't played all that bad during this time frame but I can definitely see myself playing more passively lately (not cbetting flops when I am the preflop raiser has been a big one I think). I'm utilizing the second part of your post for sure though. I feel as though playing through these hands will in the end make me a better player. I feel as though I could have gotten away from the AK hand if I had thought about it more clearly but I feel as if I'm tilting to easily when boards aren't falling the way my hand needs them to(evident by my flush and trips hands above).

Leo - I'm taking a break since Saturday night and will most likely be playing on Tuesday. As far as I think, I'm looking after myself pretty well. I eat 2-3 times a day and go to the gym 4-5 days a week supplementing my body with protein, vitamins, and fish oil. I keep very hydrated as we have been having a lot of heat waves recently where I live and it's just a healthy lifestyle habit to have. I get enjoyment out of things away from the poker table but lately when it comes to competitive games I tend to lose my cool. ex.. if I'm playing NHL 12 with my buddy at my place, we will play on the same team and take on somebody online together. If my friend makes a minor mistake, I will get on them about it. If I'm playing counter-strike online and I get killed, sometimes I will yell at the game. It's a problem I'm trying to work on for sure, and I'm hoping that just typing that recognizing it can help.

I am happy with my life as well. Poker has given me the freedom to set my own schedule which I love. I have a steady girlfriend of 2 years who I love and I have a dog as well who I've owned for a year and a half now. I do enjoy playing poker for sure, I have the poker bug and have had it since I found out about the game when I was 18... but when I continue to go to the tables and not find success in what I'm doing I feel that I start to doubt myself and my abilities. I see poker as a fun way of making money though. Instead of sitting in an office grinding out a paycheck every week I can play cards and pay my bills instead. Just hoping that this downswing will end at some point.

anyways, thanks for the replies guys.

You've had some pretty good responses so far. It's not much you win when running good, but how little you lose in running bad that defines a great player IMO. You've admitted to spewing some during this downswing, which is great in itself (most players constantly bitch about their bad beats, but fail to comment on or even realize how much more they've cost themselves than they should have).

It sounds like you've got awesome external things going on in your life, which is huge. Two things that I will tell you which you might not like right now are:
1) Grinding in poker is every bit like grinding a paycheck in an office. If it's not right now, it one day will be (and probably even moreso). And,
2) If you are remotely intelligent/personable (which you appear to be both), you will make far more $$ lifetime in a career than playing 1-2 or 2-5. When you factor in benefits, career advancement, time off, retirement, etc., you are killing your expected lifetime earnings and later lifetime enjoyment with your time spent playing poker. Being 60 years old with no retirement/savings/health benefits/advanced income is not a place that you want to be.

Best of luck with everything!

I dont think anyone who would want to play poker long term would want to play 2/5 for the rest of their lives. It is either go 25/50 and make some succesful investments or if you fail to get there, find a proper job with benefits. IMO if you are <30yo and play poker for living, it is ok, but if you dont get to those kind of stakes by 30, I hope you get a job then.

You make great points all around. Most people have to cut their teeth early on, and I think you are spot on with your general time frames. Cheers!

You are going threw a down swing. You will (If you continue to play regularly) go threw one worse than this. From what you have described this is just a standard downswing and if this gets you all emo then I'm not sure how u will react to a serious swong.

I sense you are feeling down (and possibly slightly insane) and have come here for some solace. Or some comforting words. There are none. Poker IS f34king pain son. Deal with it.

No but seriously =) - Regardless of what level your mental game is at any reasonable swing feels ****ty to one degree or another and most serious player can relate to that - But it truly is an "it is what it is" situation. If you choose to play this game seriously then you are also choosing the swings. And how you deal with the swings is at least half of it so...I'm going to have to tell you that you're current swing is standard and to man the f up and grind threw it.

Jus make sure you keep being honest with yourself about how you are playing regardless of results and if the answer to that becomes "bad" then you need a break obv.

I guess it might be bad thing in US, was thinking more like from the point of view from country where I live in. We dont have any reasonable job benefits, but health care isnt that expensive here.

Career advancement might not be so great anymore, but it is not fuked up either, most people tend to get their diplomas and proper jobs at late 20's here. As long as you have even little job experience and go to school for few hours a day, you will be at same stage as many others(not majority, but many) who went to university.

But if you dont have decent roll by the age of 30 (hundreds of thousands) it might be time to look for a "proper" job, dont think many people would love to 20-table at their 50s.

I totally disagree with this age thing. There is no proper place in terms of career advancement.

I don't know how this factors into it. But I left a career as a psychologist to try and start up my own business, which hasn't been going too well. So, poker supplements my income. I don't have a bankroll in the hundreds of thousands. I think a more pertinent question is simply, do you have the skills to make it work?

Being young and sharp is good but not necessary or essential.

As far as making poker my career is concerned, I'm not giving it a ton more time. As far as I'm concerned, if when I turn 24 I don't have a bankroll close to 30-40k I think I will go back to college and finish my engineering degree. That gives me about 10 months to put together a lot of volume and show how successful I can be at the job. Taking baby steps though.

Ended up playing last night after taking a break for a couple of days. I think overall I played well but I ended the session early down $150. Frustrating things kept happening to me during the course of the night.

Few hands in particular, look down to KcKh in MP, 3 limps to me, I raise it to 16, get 5 callers. Flop comes As7c4s checks to me, I check, player to act after me makes it $50 to go. Obvious folds are obvious.. got AdTd limped UTG, limps around I think it goes 5 way, flop comes J93 rainbow, checks through, turn is 7d giving me NFD+gutter+over. Checks to me and I make it $7 to go, two callers and the BB makes it $32 to go, I call, and one other calls. River is Ah. BB bets out $30, I just call and LP player calls. BB tables 79o and wins. Mostly just getting a lot of cold cards. This situation came up like 5 times too... Limp a suited ace, suited connector, small pair in late position in a straddled pot, someone makes it like $40 to go, and then still proceeds to get 3 or 4 callers. I ended up leaving after 3.5 hours to go and see my girlfriend for the rest of the night.

Still trying to be optimistic but lately it seems I'm not getting action when I'm hitting big hands. Seems I will often flop the nut draw, call a reasonable bet (getting like 3-4/1 on the flop), will miss turn and c/f. Funny thing is other people like to rabbit hunt at the particular game I'm going to and I still miss the river haha. Playing tonight though so here's to some run goot!

Thanks for all the responses guys.

When I first started playing, I would spend like 8 hours playing and then six hours watching training videos and posting hands at Pxf and Cardrunners. I think that this is what is needed to be a professional. I doubt many players do this.

Poker wouldn't be worth it, if you don't really truly enjoy it. But neither is Engineering. The people who I have seen who were successful did what they enjoyed. I didn't do this when I was younger. Basically, a lot of my world revolved around ego and being macho. All that stuff is bullsht.

Some players can continue playing well despite variance. I have to admit that I'm not one of them. When I was on an extended downswing, I probably prolonged it myself by playing even worse because the slight panic of a downswing clouded my judgment (i.e. semi-bluffing without fold equity, not folding strong but non-nut hands when I should, etc)

Taking a break from your main game, or a break from poker altogether for a couple weeks might help. I was going through multiple buy-ins per session for about a month straight. Once in a while I would have a slight winning session. Then, I would proceed to drop a few buyins again the next session.

So I took a couple weeks completely off and then played some random low stakes mixed games that I don't normally play the next week and a freeroll tournament that I qualified for from the previous month. Going back to my routine grind this weekend. Hopefully variance will be kind.