I think it's important to delineate between working exceptionally hard at your craft and being addicted. I know a lecturer who works at least 10 hours every day, however they are not addicted to their work, just extremely committed and ambitious.

This is the standard diagnostic for gambling addiction. Even without taking the test, if you glance through the questions the issues created by addiction are very different from just "putting a shift in". It's only when those long session impeed on other aspects of your life (e.g. "Did you ever lose time from work or school due to gambling?") that it begins to become a clinical issue.

I've also read Tyson's biography, and my own impression was that boxing was his salvation, and when he was at his happiest. Judging by other aspects of his life, he certainly had an addictive personality, but he was able to channel this during the early part of his life into something extremely positive. I guess this is what Mason is getting at in his initial question - however while hard work and addiction are simple(r) to delineate, gambling for a living and gambling addiction are not.

http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/ga/...t/20-questions

I think that in order to become a significant winner at poker, you need to have a basically obsessive desire to play the game and improve at it. That's what most of the other top players have and without it, you are unlikely to be able to compete with them.

Having such an obsession means that you make some sacrifices in other areas of your life. Some possibilities:
1. Your job outside of poker
2. Your marriage
3. Your relationship with your children
4. Your physical health

I can honestly say that I have sacrificed all of these things to some extent in order to become better at poker. I don't think I am a bad husband or father, but I could be better. I have spent a lot of nights away from my family for the sake of poker. I am providing for them financially but time is the most valuable thing I can give them. And without poker, I would be giving them a lot more.

I have shown up to work barely functional on several occasions because there was an outstanding poker game the night before and I did not want to quit. At my old job, I even called in sick a handful of times because there was a poker game I didn't want to miss.

My health has probably suffered more than anything. My priorities have been poker, work and family and I have neglected my physical health. If I did not play poker, it is likely I would have time to be a lot more involved in physical activities.

Other things have suffered too. It has been a long time since a read a non-poker related book. I haven't spent time traveling much the last ten years except to travel for poker tournaments. I don't really have any hobbies. My life basically consists of working, spending time with my family and playing or studying poker.

I have enjoyed quite a lot of success as a poker player but it would be crazy to say it's come without a price. Is it an addiction? I would like to think that it is not; that I could choose not to play poker if I wanted to.

But honestly, I'm not completely sure whether or not that is true.

So then what are we doing here? If you won't define the key term in your question, then people can give any answer and it would be reasonable if they just define it how they want. We're then not having a discussion on ideas and concepts, where people can reasonably disagree and discussion can be fruitful, but instead we're having a discussion on the definition of a word, which is rather dry and uninteresting as it's already settled.

They key component to an addiction is the inflexibility and loss of control, to the point of causing problems in your life. By definition, an addiction is bad for you. If you disagree, then you are using the word addiction in a non-standard way and should explain your definition. To avoid doing so just baffles me.

Would you agree that some one who is prescribed, say Xanax, which in effect calms the rage in his head to some degree, is better off in the long term being addicted?

Thanks for the honesty CrazyLond.

I think that if someone is confirmed great at a given poker game, and they crush over a significant sample, that calling them "addicted" would be akin to calling Stephen Hawking, Einstein, or Neils Bohr "addicted to science."

Or Michael Jordan was "addicted to basketball."

Etc.

Crusher's gonna crush.

There is another thread going this subject in "Poker Tells & Behavior." Here was my response:

Having spoken to professionals in the mental health world about this exact issue, it is safe to say that you can be addicted to poker and be a winning player. I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure it true that almost every person who has played poker professionally has been addicted to poker at some point in their career.

No two addictions are the same; and no addiction is going to be the same for the person experiencing it. There is a difference between being addicted to poker, being addicted to gambling, being addicted to winning, or being addicted to cocaine. My experience with addiction is going to be different than everyone elses.

Personally, I was addicted to winning more than I was addicted to poker. I like poker, but I love winning. If I'm not winning, I have little desire to play. I go on a heater, and I'll be at the casino, or thinking about going to the casino, until I'm not. Has this led to problems in my personal life? For sure. But at the same time, I've won A LOT of money playing poker. I can't even tell if you the problems have outweighed the financial windfall. It might not even be able to quantify...

Being addicted isn't necessarily a bad thing. As many people have pointed out, as long as its not taking priority over more important aspects of your life, it probably isn't a bad thing. If you find yourself flaking on friends, ditching work, missing out on family time, or discontinuing another healthy habits (exercise, and the like), then your addiction is probably a problem.

However, people in my office are addicted to work--but they make seven figures, so many would just call them successful. In the corporate world, this is seen as less of a problem because it doesn't involve gambling. "Work/Life Balance" is common theme in most big companies; and as long as you can achieve an appropriate poker/life balance, I don't think being addicted to poker is, per se, a bad thing.

No. Especially since benzos haven't been shown to be helpful long term and since physical tolerance is a thing that develops.

So in other words, if it's not an addiction then it's not a problem, and if it is an addiction then it is a problem. Redefining the word addiction to remove the negatives and then showing that addiction isn't a negative is really not interesting.

So in other words, you are not a troll if it's not a problem, and you are a troll if it is a problem? Redefining the word troll to remove the negatives and then showing that the troll isn't a negative is ACTUALLY interesting.

What?

You actually said what I wrote in my post. Part of what makes an addiction an addiction is that it takes "priority over more important aspects of your life" so that "you find yourself flaking on friends, ditching work, missing out on family time, or discontinuing another healthy habits (exercise, and the like)." It's just not an addiction otherwise.

Hm, we agree to disagree then.

Because in this specific case the medication means the difference between a reasonably 'calm' life and winding up in jail, again.

But I can see your point in general.

All that can be part of addiction ... or it can just be lack of discipline or impulse control. Addiction is about escape and transporting oneself into a different emotional landscape via an agent. If someone stays at the poker room until 2 AM when he tells his wife he will be home by 10, in itself that doesn't say much about whether it's an addiction. It's just kind of unreliable, undisciplined, etc. If he uses it as a primary life strategy to escape his emotional reality, it's addiction.

I can't speak for professional poker players, but I often remember my fathers rhetorical question:

"What is the price of greatness?"

My father was a guitar player, and eventually, one of the better ones in the state at the time.

However, I can remember several nights when he would practice a single piece of music over and over again.

Why? Because he wanted it to be perfect.

Maybe the price of greatness is exclusion to one thing and perfecting it.

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As someone who has faced addictions of many kind, I would say yes, one can be addicted to anything. An addiction is really anything that controls you. By its self poker, or anything else, is not the problem. It is an underlying issue in your life and you may use poker, drugs, food, sex, anything as an escape. There have been times when all I wanted to do was play poker. I would play for days on end because I had no life. Now, my life is more balanced and poker, while still something I do a lot, is not my entire life. Doing so, with anything, can be dangerous. It would seem there is a fine line between obsession and addiction, and certainly personalities can lend themselves to these types of behaviors. However, this is not always a bad thing. You can also obsess about healthy things like exercise, diet, relationships, etc. Personally, I have learned how to embrace and understand my own weaknesses. I know how they effect me at the table and in life. I don't play marathon sessions anymore. I take breaks away from the table. I do other things. Having this balance, and having my life have more meaning than just a game of cards, really helps me from falling into addiction and minimizes things like tilt. Old habits still die hard, and these things still happen, but not like in years past.

^ Great input.

Being addicted to anything, imo implies that it makes you live a very unbalanced lifestyle, which for poker can be fine for periods of time to improve your game or even necessary. That said, if its a long term issue it will always be -ev for your life happines overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5ZYV-IMIUU

This is a good video for anyone dealing with addiction.

Sounds more like compulsive gambling than addicted playing. Big difference and the precise thing we need to delineate clearly.

Hi gjpure:

Thanks for an excellent post.

But here's a question which is a little different from the purpose of this thread. Did your relationship with poker, which at one time appeared to be an addiction, actually help move you towards a better life? And if that's the case, then being addicted to poker may have done you a lot of good.

Best wishes,
Mason

Hi adam001:

I question this in the long term case where you're also a winning poker player. I'm not saying I'm right, but it does seem to me that when addiction is addressed it's viewed as something that is all negative, and it seems to me that's not the case if you're a significant winner.

Best wishes,
Mason

Yeah I guess its just about how you define it. I do spend quite a bit of my time playing poker or doing off table work on poker. Am I addicted? It certainly is a big part of any poker players self image or identity, and would certainly feel weird to suddenly not play as much anymore if say we won a lot of $ in a lottery.

I think a good test for whether or not you have a healthy mindset as someone who plays a lot of poker/plays for living is how happy you are overall. Generally the lesser happy people will probably be having poker negatively impact their life in some significant way id imagine.

All negative? Addictions certainly aren't negative in every aspect; the problem is that they're net negatives.

Mason,

Yes, poker has taught be a lot about myself. In this sense, it has done more good than harm. On the other hand, there are some days I wish I never discovered poker. I think poker will reveal your true character and teach you things you never knew. A sort of self realization. Its probably funny to the rest of the world that a form of gambling may be the path to enlightenment, but if you cant handle a bad beat in poker - how will you handle one in real life? Poker has taught me social skills, patience, resolve, money management and so much more. It is always teaching me something and it keeps me humble and accountable for my decisions. I have actually considering writing some kind of book about my personal growth and lessons learned from poker, just not sure who would read it or how to market it. The idea is there, just don't want to waste my time with it. PM me if you have any ideas.

I think it is a problem.

Grunch. In a vacuum, with the understanding that money and success are all that matter in life, your stance is 100% right.

Once you start factoring in that addiction causes people to make bad life choices, like ignoring important personal relationships or health, or forgetting that you're more than just a paycheck to your family, etc., you can start to imagine where the problems can set in, even when accompanied by great success.

Addiction is a loss of control over one's life. If an addicted person has a great life nonethess, it's the equivalent of someone playing poker blindly and just running well before they cash out. It doesn't mean what they were doing wasn't -EV.

Hi LowSociety:

You make a very good point.

Best wishes,
Mason