ive seen so many suck outs its ridiculous. Ive played on pokerstars for about 2 months and ive decided to never get my money in before the river. haha joke i guess, but yea i wish i knew the answer to it rigged or not. we should all quit JS

This would be an argument FOR rigging, would it not?

rigged

here's my attempt to get solid proof PokerStars is rigged:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...rstars-504421/

Pls join.

LOL

Nice attempt btw.

the thread has been deleted w/o explanation.

Here is the message:

PokerStars is so obviously rigged. It's not too difficult to prove.
Someone must punish them. I begin a campaign against PokerStars (PS).
My intention is to prove that the software is rigged, at least in SNG and MTT.

The plan:
1)Get enough hand histories (HH) from the players willing to take part.
2)Create software for analysis of the data.
3)Prove mathematically that the outcomes of all-ins are biased.
4)Find a lawyer to prepare and file a lawsuit against PS.
5)Get compensation from PokerStars, prevent them from cheating in future.

Some details of the plan:

1)HH
I estimate HH of about 10,000 SnGs and about 3,000 MTT tourneys will suffice to get mathematical evidence.

2)Software
Alon Albert has almost ready software for the task. I will ask his help. Can anyone else help?

3)Mathematical prove
The idea is to collect statistics on all-ins, draw closing, flop cards, etc. Compare actual outcomes to probabilities. Get deviations using normal approximation method. If the deviation exceeds the reasonable level, it will prove that the PS software is rigged.

What exactly seems to be rigged?

a) Big stack advantage
PS software gives advantage to big stacks. In SnGs, I estimate the big stack win allins about 1.5% more often, then it is supposed to based on equity. In MTT the advantage of big stacks is much bigger, it's just ridiculous.
Especially, there's a type of preflop allins I call «domination by pocket pair» (AA vs AK, KK vs TT, QQ vs JT, etc).
According to my statistics in SnG games, the average equity of such all-ins is 84%/16%. Then big stack dominates short one, it wins in about 84% cases which is normal. Then big stack is dominated, it wins about 25% allins although supposed to win only 16%! Everyone can check by himself.

b) Allin luck
I believe every player with ROI > 0 eventually ends up with the lack of luck, i.e. his actual win is less than expected. There may be 2 explanations. Either PS gives more luck to losing players to keep them playing (see below), or some players are the room's bots (which is outright robbery). Of course, if we provide 100 unlucky players, PS can always claim there are 200 lucky players outwhere, so this can't be an evidence. But we can take a certain player and estimate the probability of his «unluckiness». If the probability is little enough, say less than 0.1%, this is the ground for accustaion. The data needed for the math analysis: list of allins with equity and outcome, number of allins.

c) Cashout curse
After every cashout the player is likely to face a downstreak. Have to check allin luck during 500 tourneys after every cashout.

d) Weak hands
Weak hands win a little bit more often than they should. Thus PS encourages bad players.
Need to analyse allins 60%+ vs 40%-.

e) Draws
Flush and straight draws close too often, encouraging bad play.

Proving at least one point of above a)-e) will be enough to sue PS.

4)Lawyer
I'm sure there are lawyers among players who would like to handle it. I have one reference already.

5)Compenstaion
I have an idea how to estimate the loss. Plus moral compensation of course.
I suppose if the lawsuit is prepared properly, PS will offer compensation pre-trial.

The ones willing to join the project, please contact me by email:
ROONEY [a] BK [dot] RU

Like a billion people have already done exactly what you are proposing to do with smaller samples. As of yet, the evidence is still overwhelmingly in favor of not rigged. Enjoy wasting your time.

Sherman

Within the next week or two I'll post an analysis of a few hundred million hands including your (4a,b,d,and e) showing without any doubt that everything is random. I'm using the database at www.pokerftp.com. I won't have any way to do "4c" and neither will anyone else as no one has account deposit/withdraw records other than the player themselves.

BTW, you look foolish by suggesting that the outcome is surely "rigged" and already a foregone conclusion. Many people have looked at real data like this before and never found anything unfair.

Yes

This

This goes out to everyone who truly believes PS/FTP to be rigged:

You are an idiot.

-You are planning to conduct an experiment which attempts to reach a particular conclusion.
-Your sample is relatively small.
-(I believe) Evidence based on larger samples has generally shown PS/FTP to be random.
-You have no mathematical or statistical proof for your stance.
-You have no logical proofs that would provide an incentive for PS/FTP to rig games.

People who believe in 'riggedness' tend to have negative ROIs. It is natural to create scenarios where you aren't responsible for your poor playing; however, to reject reason in the face of your biased, retarded mind is just ridiculous. To question a system or standard foundation is a positive, intelligent thing to do. Simply submitting to the belief PS/FTP must be rigged based on anecdotes shows a weakness of will.

The 'OMGZ PS IZ TEH RIGGZ I GOT ONE OUTERED ON 2 TABLZ AT TEH SAME TIME!!!!1!!!!!!11!!!" mindset should be known as the Mulholland Dr. fallacy. Mulholland Dr. (spoilers) was a movie by David Lynch where a woman, distraught with her personal failures in life, creates a 'dream world' to escape the responsibility of her actions, projecting blame on everyone and everything to avoid facing her own missteps.

It's not rigged you people are idiots do you really thing they would loose millions of dollars just to make a few thousand more by rigging the small stake. Because look at the fact, most people that complain play small stakes and lost a few hundred dollars at the most, most of the time just there first deposit 50$ and they thing since they played before that there the next phil ivey and play way too many hands or are just too tight. If your a good LAG and TAG player you will be able to adapt to any table. And stop taking those stupid coin flip early in tourney you will suffer less bad beats.

I play on Full tilt and Pokerstar and other sites I play live too I see the same bad beat over and over I see As over Ks and the king hit on the river in live game and online game thats what poker is all about you win most of the time with that hand but you will only rembember the times you lose with it and blame it on the site.

My answer to is it rigged NO. Is there lost of morrons on FT and PS yes maybe 75% even more. Look at the stats most player are waek player that multi-table with tons of tells even online. Start playing only 1 game at the time and when you really know lots on poker then maybe multi-table. And when I mean lots I mean not only been tight passive and wait for your hands and know the odds and the starting hands groupes most player can master that easly. You need to be sharp know how and when to bluff you have to be able to put people on hands not the exact hand but a range of hands, you need to know how to make people believe you have a monster when you have a busted flush draw and tons of other things I wont even get it too.

So people stop crying and learn how to play better

There are some real fuuukin stuuupid idiots in here... dumb so dumb.. imagine getting a wheel barrow walking to a pile of cash shovelling it in till its full then walking back with it to dump it on ur pile.. then re walking back to a heap of cash to start shoveling again.... well this is what stars is sorta making with rake.... for excellent software customer service respect, infact prolly the best site in the world for poker. NOW tell me why would anyone cheat a multimillion $ organisation when its making millionsa anyway.. be quiet seriously..... AND HERES A LIL FACT.. nl proffesional poker works on a 80%20% basis... which means 20% of the best players are winning 80% of the time.... so flip side 80% of the custom on stars are all losers..NOW taking that into consideration... there 80% of **** angry players now thinking they have been robbed by a rigged site..<<< was always gonna happen. simple fact is if u spunked a roll vs crap players and got sucked out ul. but thats all it is. unluckyness<<< not sure if thats a word but it is now. anyways much love md x

rigged

LOL...why would there not be 1 RNG? I f the math is fixed?
See, if poker gets legal in the U.S. I will lay 2-1 that card distribution will hold different stats than pokerstars.

Several winning players on stars have losing records on FullTilt....WTF? FullTilt is sketchy as fk.

One independent source for RNG that is accountable.