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Old 04-19-2016, 04:00 PM   #1
Cobweb
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Some observations

Hi,

I hope you take this post in the spirit it is intended.

I have recently decided to get some coaching to improve my game. I am a recreational player, but want to play to the best of my ability. Despite preferring to play live poker I am prepared to play online (which I really don't enjoy very much) in order to help my learning. So I spotted your posts here, and had a look at the website.

I'm not a huge fan of the initial "deposit" system, but in fairness I can see how you would want an upfront commitment from me to make sure I am going to give it a go. I'm not a massive fan of the big numbers you are throwing around as potential winnings. However maybe they are possible- you have plenty of nice looking graphs and testimonials. They do look a bit like a cheap attempt to lure in suckers though. But again- I already know I am unlikely to ever put in the kind of volume needed to win at those levels, so I can put them to one side. I am very impressed with the bios of the coaches- it seems like your coaches really are skilled and capable players.

So I had a look at your videos on youtube. The one I found first was the slowplay v fastplay video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv4NdsByE3Q

Now let me be clear- I thought the advice that was being given was excellent. I was very impressed. I also liked the systematic approach that seemed to be used to determine what route to take through the hand. In fact it was something exactly like that I was looking for.

So why have I just spent/invested a similar amount of money to what you were asking for elsewhere?

Simple really. I don't want to be talked to in the way that "coach" spoke to that player. That was one of the most unprofessional displays I have ever heard. It reminded me of a manager in a commission only telesales boiler room. That's not coaching. If I pay for my coaching I am either your customer, or we are partners. I don't mind which model you prefer. But that is not how you deal with either. The level of abuse and inappropriate language was disgraceful. I am looking for a coach that will work with me and develop my game with me. I am a professional in my work environment, and expect others to be the same in theirs. This is not what I saw or heard and I have no interest in joining that environment.
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Old 04-20-2016, 06:10 AM   #2
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Re: Some observations

Hi Cobweb,

Thanks for the comments, we welcome any honest feedback, as we try to improve all the time.

Now, different coaches have different styles. Our community of students is very friendly and helpful and positive. They help each other in all possible ways. But the role of the coach is different.

The coach is not there to be your »poker buddy«. The coach:trainee relationship is something quite peculiar, and not many people get it right. That's why not many great players are great coaches. And this is not unique just to poker, it applies in any field.

Since you're from England, let's take a football analogy. Sir Alex Fergusson was famous for his »hairdryer« sessions. He didn't mind telling his players if they f****d up very directly, and from what I know, he didn't use the censuring **** while he was doing it.

Was he not a coach, or unprofessional for doing it? Quite the contrary. Some say he was the greatest coach football ever had. He was not popular with everybody, but they respected him. His teams were dominating, and had a fearless winning mentality. In poker terms, they were crushing.

Now, let's take somebody like Arsene Wenger. He is a very friendly and polite-mannered gentlemen. He doesn't scream at his players. People generally like him. His teams play a nice, pleasant-looking style of football. And win nothing.

At BPC, we don't like to be politically correct. It's not just that we don't want to conform to it, we actually think it's damaging. So we don't sugar-coat things. Sometimes tough love is necessary to bring across the point. This is nothing personal at all.

What we are all about, rather, is this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobweb View Post
I thought the advice that was being given was excellent. I was very impressed. I also liked the systematic approach that seemed to be used to determine what route to take through the hand. In fact it was something exactly like that I was looking for.
We care about the quality of the lessons, and we care about results. And we get them for the student. In fact we get them so well, that people have a hard time believing it, like you mentioned. That's why we post everything publicly, from day 1. One of our goals is also to bring transparency into the poker coaching industry, and raise the level of it as a whole.

You chose another option, I hope it works out for you well. If not, you know where to find us.

Good luck.
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Old 04-20-2016, 04:23 PM   #3
Cobweb
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Re: Some observations

Thanks for taking the time to reply, and the forthright and professional manner in your response.

I don't intend to turn this into a huge argument- it's your business and you are free to run it as you wish. however I am going to disagree with you!

The football comparisons you make are interesting, but not valid. The examples you cite are people managing exceptional talents who are also employees. Your coachees are neither (no insult intended there, they are there to learn). I also suggest that Fergusons infamous "hairdryer" was notable due to it being the exception rather than the rule. In fact Ferguson was renown for supporting his players, whilst still having exceptionally high expectations of them. They all knew he believed in them. I don't think the recipient of the coaching in the video felt like that.

I wouldn't dream of challenging your coaches on their poker advice- from what I have seen it looks excellent and their experience looks outstanding. I would also accept without reservation you have a significant number of people posting good looking graphs. But....... in poker we all know there is a difference between a profitable route and an optimal route. I suggest you are currently working to the former, not the latter. I say this as someone with a very successful career as an educator in one of this countries best performing schools. So in the same way your coaches know their poker, I know my teaching.

To continue your football analogy- there are many exceptional players who have gone on to be disastrous managers. Both Ferguson & Wenger weren't world class players. I fully accept that this might have been an atypical session (and believe me, I understand the need to deliver a kick up the arse from time to time)- but if so why not swap it for a more constructive one? Give a better impression of your teaching. If it isn't unusual then maybe it is worth your coaches looking to improve their skills- not in poker, but in teaching.

In retrospect I should probably have sent my initial comments by PM. Maybe I need to keep my nose out of other peoples business! I'm not looking to knock your business- and I am happy for you to delete the thread if you prefer it to go.

I wish you well.
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:58 PM   #4
RunNitOnce
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Re: Some observations

I know this post is from last month but felt the need to reply. I love the way Gordon ridiculed his student in that video. He didn't hold anything back and the player is now better off unless he's mentally weak. Poker isn't a game for the light hearted or thin skinned. It's war. Take what you can, give nothing back... until you retire that is.
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Old 05-18-2016, 03:54 AM   #5
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Re: Some observations

Exactly!

But people see things differently.
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Old 05-27-2016, 07:00 AM   #6
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Re: Some observations

@Coweb:
Probably what i suggest you to do is to buy poker courses from us where there is no 1-1 interaction.

Your opinion is what some people share. Even one of our most successful ones (Steezy, finished with a 30k month) said he loved it, but sometimes i was overly tough.

Look, we're real people and that's how it is.
Our most successful students either enjoy it, or don't take it too personal.

It is VERY IMPORTANT to understand that there are 2 options when joining BPC.

1) Buy poker courses:

You are our customer and partner. No screaming/yelling, you pay for what you buy and you get treated the way you'd expect as a valued customer. With respect, no foul language.

2) Coaching For Profits:

Look, this is different. WE take the (financial) risk and this means it's "our way or the highway".

If you want to do it your way, go ahead with option 1).
You can't have it both ways, take no risk AND be treated the way you think is best. I mean, the way you did it brought you to where you are now. And doing the same thing again, expecting different results...well u know the phrase

Option 2 is certainly not for everybody. Also, not like you're getting screamed at constantly lol, we also have calm coaches.
However, we know what makes $$$ at the tables, we have proven it countless times. That's why we continue it "my way".
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Old 05-27-2016, 07:01 AM   #7
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Re: Some observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by RunNitOnce View Post
I know this post is from last month but felt the need to reply. I love the way Gordon ridiculed his student in that video. He didn't hold anything back and the player is now better off unless he's mentally weak. Poker isn't a game for the light hearted or thin skinned. It's war. Take what you can, give nothing back... until you retire that is.
You certainly fit very well into the BPC spirit!
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Old 05-29-2016, 09:49 AM   #8
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Re: Some observations

Agreed. This coach seemed to be correct in all of his critiques - but seemed more concerned with articulating how "stupid/retarded" the guy and plays were vs actually trying to coach and correct mistakes. This is the most unprofessional display of teaching/coaching I've ever seen and would never want to associate with someone or a site that condoned this type of behavior from their coaches.
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Old 05-29-2016, 03:03 PM   #9
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Re: Some observations

As we already had mentioned:
Our real successful players enjoy it and some just don't take it too personally.

It is obviously your choice, which type of coaching you chose. But our method shows results:






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Old 06-02-2016, 07:01 AM   #10
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Re: Some observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by nebukud View Post
Agreed. This coach seemed to be correct in all of his critiques - but seemed more concerned with articulating how "stupid/retarded" the guy and plays were vs actually trying to coach and correct mistakes. This is the most unprofessional display of teaching/coaching I've ever seen and would never want to associate with someone or a site that condoned this type of behavior from their coaches.
That's fine, you're better off studying at a liberal arts college with safe zones .

Unfortunately that coach is the owner of the site and was the most popular coach on pokerstrategy dot com until he decided to stop producing there and build his "own way" because he saw how weak, boring and useless most people there were.

Enter BPC and see how a different approach creates amazing results! It would be a lie to say that we did not make many enemies on our way up.

Some people think they are good bc they say please and thank you. Doesn't cut it for us!

Anything but the best is not good enough! If you wanna make it anywhere you have to be tough and willing to take a beating if needed. If words hurt you too much, how are you gonna react on a downswing in poker?
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Old 06-15-2016, 06:16 AM   #11
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Re: Some observations

Hello,

my observation is that your e-mail support outsourced to ZenDesk doesn't surprisingly really work. They can't answer anything and I'd really need to know more about one of your programs before finding the answers myself by doing that €500 transfer.

Could I get an e-mail address to real support or something?
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Old 06-15-2016, 06:46 AM   #12
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Re: Some observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by clooown View Post
Hello,

my observation is that your e-mail support outsourced to ZenDesk doesn't surprisingly really work. They can't answer anything and I'd really need to know more about one of your programs before finding the answers myself by doing that €500 transfer.

Could I get an e-mail address to real support or something?
Hey,

thanks for getting in touch with us.

What do you want to know in detail?
Why we are asking for 500 EUR at the beginning?
The 500 EUR is just a deposit, not actually a payment which you will receive back at the end of the program.

Our guys are actually answering our support mail, they either went through the program themselves or are still in the program. So they know exactly, what we offer

But you can also write your questions to us as private message here or in Facebook or write to media@bestpokercoaching.com

We will answer all your questions within 24 hours.
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:18 AM   #13
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Re: Some observations

"my observation is that your e-mail support outsourced to ZenDesk doesn't surprisingly really work."

By the way: Zendesk is a tool to answer customer mails and not at all a way of outsourcing. Zendesk will never answer mails for us to our customers.
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:07 AM   #14
Knusern
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Re: Some observations

"YOU DUMB ****" got me laughing in The begining i tought him as rude aswell. But after looking true it all it looks like He just speak his Mind for good/bad without any filters.
And you hear in his voice, Even tough saying alot bad that He really try to teach The student to be better. If He was my coach i probably be The dumbest **** He ever seen hehe
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:18 AM   #15
Knusern
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Re: Some observations

"YOU DUMB ****" got me laughing in The begining i tought him as rude aswell. But after looking true it all it looks like He just speak his Mind for good/bad without any filters.
And you hear in his voice, Even tough saying alot bad that He really try to teach The student to be better. If He was my coach i probably be The dumbest **** He ever seen hehe
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Old 06-17-2016, 01:33 PM   #16
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Re: Some observations

I've gotta say that was one of the funniest poker videos I've seen in a long time.

"Yeah I just know you're gonna gaybet the river, that's why you're playing these baby money limits' lol.
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Old 06-18-2016, 05:15 AM   #17
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Re: Some observations

@ Knusern:
Yes, exactly. Gordon is trying to teach the player. That is the main point here.
Sometimes you have to take a beating, if this is necessary.

Nice words will be forgotten easily.
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Old 06-18-2016, 08:47 AM   #18
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Re: Some observations

Should release a series of videos of coaches raging like that, just like the 'tuff fish' guy from years ago.

Actually serious about that - it was comedy gold. Would get a ton of youtube hits no doubt.
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Old 06-20-2016, 02:16 AM   #19
ThinkItThrough
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Re: Some observations

If you like the style, in CFP Micro there are around 50-100 vids like that of me (and more of other coaches).
If anybody wants to compile the curse-moments, that'd be fun of course

While i certainly think that coaching should never be boring, i don't think i'd be a good comedian.

I do take this 100% serious (hence the great results of students) and everything i do is done to help the student. People finding it entertaining is great and i take it as a compliment.
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Old 06-21-2016, 11:34 PM   #20
Knusern
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Re: Some observations

Hmmmm i find this post so fun i actualy come back to se more fun. But nobody makes more du ^^. I have Two questions.

1: if this guy is playing The baby limit what are i playing then on 10nl?

2: what is The total profit of that student:-)? And what limits He play today?
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Old 06-23-2016, 12:22 PM   #21
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Re: Some observations

1) Microbaby ? I’m not gonna say you’re a poker genius altho you’re quite a sympathetic person… but with work u will become one.

2) We can’t, privacy of student. We share what we can, but u can find millions of blogs…perhaps less than some time ago bc it’s voluntary. U can find the good, u can also find those of people who gave up. That’s just part of life.
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Old 06-23-2016, 10:24 PM   #22
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Re: Some observations

Microbaby not Even gone Ask what 2nl is! Hehe.

I think u missunderstand my Intent Idk who this student is. I dont wanna know his name and adress im just thinking if He went true The baby limits with this kind of beating and became sucsessfull or alot better it would be inspiering.
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Old 06-24-2016, 06:25 PM   #23
ThinkItThrough
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Re: Some observations

It works of course, i'm the same with everybody. Some said it's a bit too much (Steezy, who made 30k on his last month in coaching), but still appreciate it.

For inspiration, there are millions of stories. We have quite a lot of players, maybe it's a bit embarrassing for me to live with the fact that we have so many students and i don't know anymore where every single of them is right now...
Went from big losing player to slight winner and hopefully big winner soon (last info i have).
Our individual coaches track progress more closely.

Like i've said, some will win big. The huge majority improves a lot. And then there are those who give up. Real life.

My best advice for you or anybody is to go for what u want (doesnt have to be poker) and stop looking for excuses on why it wouldn't work.
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