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Old 07-03-2016, 01:00 PM   #1
Zrebna
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1 question regards to the NL6max Crusher-programm

Hi!

I am playing SSNL (NL100 and nl200 6max) for a living with an about 3bb/100 winrate.
So plenty of room to improve.

In fact I am searching at the moment for a strong CFP-camp because I think that learning within a strong environment will provide you longterm the best progress-chances.

I only have one question due to this quote on your homepage:

• PROFIT SPLIT: 50%

We do no charge for the study materials or for the amount of coaching you will receive. We share your profits, 50:50. That means, you only pay us if you make money at the tables. If you don't profit, you don't pay anything. Payments are done 1x monthly.


Isn't the statement that you only pay if you win, potentially not always correctly?
Extreme example:
lets consider a 12 months-duration:
6 months of a 12 month timeframe you make about 20k usd net-winnings.
-> hence you will pay 10k USD for CFP-programm.

But 6 months you make 20k losses
.

So in reality you are breakeven and made no winnings, but effectively you will pay 10k usd.
Do I have anywhere a misconception or a flawed logic?

Also one additional question:
How you handle the situation regards to rakeback?

And one very last question which now comes into my mind:
Haven't you had once in the past a kind of high-endish CFP-programm which prepares you for crushing HSNL and where the security-depo was 5k, if I remember correctly?


Best Regards,
Zrebna

Last edited by Zrebna; 07-03-2016 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 07-03-2016, 05:01 PM   #2
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Re: 1 question regards to the NL6max Crusher-programm

Hi,

The extreme example is correct, I guess, and of course you can always find extreme/creative theoretical exceptions to anything on the planet, really...

So yes, if you join the 30k program, make 25k, pay 50% of that and then get drunk and bust 50k on high-stakes tables in one session, you will have paid even you are now down overall.

However, one can argue you are not paying for coaching in this case, but for stupidity So the "only pay for coaching if you win" part is still true even in this extreme case!

On a serious note, nothing like this has ever happened, nor can happen in the program. What does happen, is 15k winning days, like this one:

http://www.bestpokercoaching.com/top...2/#post-224562

The guy was a total PLO noob a few months ago when he joined CFP...


As for rakeback, it's considered as part of the profits. Table winnings + rakeback + deposit bonuses all count towards the profit target.

All of our programs are high-end - the Crusher will prepare you for the HSNL, but deposit was never 5k, it has always been 500. (The contract was 100k back in the day, though)
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Old 07-03-2016, 05:52 PM   #3
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Re: 1 question regards to the NL6max Crusher-programm

Hi!

First of all, thank you very much for your reply, really appreciate your detailed answer.

As for your first created extreme example:
It has nothing to do with my scenario, but maybe I have mislead you or confused by focusing on a chronological order.
So, i try it once again:

You will agree that in 2016 it is not an unlikely scenario to be a be-player or someone with a <= 3bb/100 winrate at SSNL, I would guess?
You know also that the variance in poker does not come chronological, so in fact yeah:
a BE-reg will oftentimes not breakeven more or less every month, but in fact will win nicely in some months, while loos in another months.
This is in fact the most likely scenario due to many PTR and db-analysis.

So that is why indeed , it would be way more pointful to have a yearly payment (unless the goal is reached before), but I can see that from a business and practical standpoint that is not optimal for you.
So i do not say you should incoorperate it or even blame you by not doing so, but the fact of the truth is that with the current system the statement that you only pay if you win is just not effectively 100% true, what indeed causes kind of a danger for slight winning full-time grinders... and at this point it is simply no more risk free.
Again, this is no offense and I also do not see any solid way (for each party) around or any better way + I think your program is potentially very valueable, but it is just like it is.

Ah ok, so it is 50% of everything, so including 50% of rakeback and bonuses, etc... but not 100% rakeback - so thats already cool.

Also yeah, regards to the 5k-depo I was not correctly informed - sry for that and thanks for clearing it up!^^

I really think that your program has lots of value,
especially the mentoring and drilling-philosophy plus I have heard lots of good bout it.
Some other aspects let m personally shy a bit away, especially the kind of aggressive marketing by oftentimes (not only) using spectacular eye-catching shortterm results.
But I can see why this kind of marketing makes sense and finally still can lead to good for all parties, so I do not mind it too much, within a "bigger picture perspective."

Anyways, as said - thanks a lot for replying and I hope you do not take some critical words from me as an offense.

Best Regards,
Zrebna
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Old 07-04-2016, 04:29 PM   #4
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Re: 1 question regards to the NL6max Crusher-programm

Ok, so your concern is that you may have 2 good months running good, and you have to pay your %, and after that reality sinks in and you have 2 bad months, correct?

First, there's no hard set rule on monthly payments. That's the standard, but if people show dedication and the situation calls for it, we postpone or reduce payments, we do it all the time. So in theory, if you feel you are a 3k/month player and have a 15k month when you join the program, and you're concerned about having to pay 7.5k at the end of the month...

It's not a problem, if strange cases happen, we sit down and talk.

We have the standard 50:50 approach at the end of the month which works very well for 99% of situations. For the rest we talk with the student and adjust on what is best, we do it all the time.

As for marketing, well, we're poker pros, not marketing pros, so we may get over excited when our student hits a $15k record day and are quick to tell everybody about it

Don't agree with the "short-term", though, this same guy for example finished the 60k HU program in 7 months, came back a few months ago to join the 60k PLO and is now at 50k already.

That's 110k in profits in about a year or a bit less - not exactly just a lucky run

Tnx for the comments, feedback is always welcome, if it's critical even better - that means we have room for improvement and can do even better!
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Old 07-04-2016, 05:49 PM   #5
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Re: 1 question regards to the NL6max Crusher-programm

Hey!

I mean, I understand your procedre because you just need to set certain cuts and rules and payments per month do work in practice good enough.
But I appreciate that you are open to check out case by case-situations.
I mean, it is easy to prove with PTR and DBs in which range your winrate will most likely be (given a big enough sample + of course all the time continueing giving full gas in order to stay ahead of the average learning curve).

And sure - as said, no doubt from what I was hearing that you are able to produce with your mentoring philosophy many longterm successes.

2 last questions:

1.) Do you offer a program (maybe under than hand - so not commercial because I cannot find there anything on your page) for NL CG 6max-Players after they have successfully finished the SSNL crusher-programm?
Is there something beyond it when you and the player in question would like to continue working together?
And I would guess/hope, it is all right to still join the SSNL crusher programm, even when you already beat SSNL but you are sure that working together with BPC could boost your progress massively?

2.) Is it a problem when you would consider to join while being on a pokercoaching-site, coach and vid-producer yourself due to passion for both, learning and teaching?
Or would this cause due to your policies any kind of significant overlaps?

Also thumbs up for some of your youtube-vids - some are also heavily entertaining, but more important than this is, that there is always some solid educational content and concepts involved which are being delivered in a clear and concrete language (tough love modus) and not by using a "sissy"- or teddy bear-language, like you can hear at many other places...
I think that this is important because in fact progressing and growing goes hand in hand with pushing borders (no pain, no gain) and not by going only so far as it feels comfortable and by only listening to feedback which does not focus 100% on truly making you better but more on making you feel short-term happy and pleasant (in the worst case mostly tells you what you want to hear).

So thumbs up for you general philosophy - really like it!
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Old 07-06-2016, 06:11 AM   #6
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Re: 1 question regards to the NL6max Crusher-programm

Glad you like our concept and the YT videos - yes tough love can be hard to take sometimes, but it's the best (and most kind in the long-term!) thing you can get from a teacher/coach.

As for your questions:

At the moment we don't have the next step, we are thinking about implementing an advanced version in the future, but I really can't say when that will be. Anybody can join, being a winner or a coach, or video producer already is no issue at all.

Many players say the community, productivity, mindset, organisation, personal growth etc. were actually a HUGE part of their experience and progress, even though these are in a way "soft skills" that most players are not actively seeking (or even thinking about).

In our experience, these are actually some of the most important things for success in any field, perhaps even more so in poker.

That said, I want to make it clear that if you're already making a lot of money regularly, let's say if you're near $10k monthly already, you should not join, as the added value won't be enough for you. We could take you, but it would be a free-roll from our side in a way, and that's not what we wanna do. Or similarly, if you're crushing NL400+already.

Working together beyond the Crusher program is always possible, in different ways. We're a great community, and always welcome new members. Several students are coaching the next generations now after completing the program, some join again but another program, etc. If you're interested in a more advanced 6max coaching specifically, like said, it's something that is on our mind for the future, and we're always open to possibilities and ways to improve the program for students.
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Old 07-06-2016, 12:50 PM   #7
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Re: 1 question regards to the NL6max Crusher-programm

Thanks a lot for your reply and I agree with all you said!
For sure will consider working with you guys together for a potential future^^

Best Regards,
Zrebna
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