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Using False Tells Using False Tells

09-02-2015 , 01:22 PM
I have read Caro's Book of Tells in addition to content on here and other sites regarding tells. Almost immediately, I began to incorporate purposely showing false tells against villains I think may be in the know, especially tells related to handshakes, breathing patterns etc.

Obviously these actions aren't of much use against players who don't pay attention or aren't acquainted with live tells. However, on more than one occasion I've flashed a handshake while cutting chips to get a fold out of extremely competent players.

Has anyone else done these things? If so how has the success been?

I don't think that incorporating this into your game is every going to make much of a difference in a fishy game but against a bunch of solids, I think it is nice to have in your repertoire.
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09-02-2015 , 07:48 PM
This is why, at a certain level, tells become less productive. Unless you are watching like a hawk and can catch the microexpression right as you act or the flop is revealed, anything you detect is likely to be false. Since everyone has read the same books (Navarro, Caro, etc.), everyone knows what the other players are looking for.

I know I routinely throw out steepling, face guarding, bouncing feet, crossing arms, and distancing, regardless of hand strength, just to put some static out there.
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09-03-2015 , 01:20 AM
pulling off a false tell is one of the funnest things to do at a poker table. true though, dumb players won't pick up on it and smart ones will see through it.

i like to stare at the flop when i flop a monster because conventional tell theory suggests most players do the opposite i.e. glance quickly then look away as to not attract to much attention.

fun when it works.
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09-03-2015 , 03:08 AM
Every beginner already tries it/ its tricky to do right. Most everybody sucks so bad that tells/false tells are irrelevant. Save stuff like this for an opponent with lots of history.
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09-03-2015 , 01:18 PM
I've watched and played a good amount of poker, and in my experience hardly anyone playing poker at any significant stakes uses false tells. Occasionally you run into players who like to be tricky, but the nice thing about that is that if you're watching your opponents and you see them do something weird and counter-intuitive, you can just remember that about the player. Most tells only become useful when playing against players you've played a good amount with, so it's not like you should be basing big decisions off of one-off tells from strangers in the first place (although occasionally you can feel comfortable doing so).

Also, players who like to use false tells run the risk of their false tells becoming their tells. For example, I've sometimes read posts from players who say they like to feign being weak when betting a strong hand, by doing things like: peeking intermittently at opponent nervously, or putting on a worried expressions, or whatever it is. But by doing these things, they are potentially opening themselves up to actually having a pattern; it's possible when they're bluffing they are completely stoic and when they have a strong hand they are trying assorted weird behaviors to try to get calls, so they end up being unbalanced, which may be noticed by an observant player.

Another example: some players have a tendency to act relaxed when betting/shoving with vulnerable hands. They may smile, look at the TV, or try to talk in a relaxed way, to convey relaxation. Whereas when they have a strong hand, they're more likely to act "weak" by being silent (plus they instinctually may not want to discourage action).

These are just a couple player-specific examples, not universal examples, but my point is that if you're not careful with how you use false tells they can become your tells.

Because it's usually super-hard to predict how an opponent will interpret our behavior, most of the time trying to use false tells is just creating an extra layer of weirdness and unpredictability to worry about.

Having said that, I think there are times it can be smart to use false tells. I've used them before, but very rarely. Mainly when I'm a) playing versus a decent player who I believe is likely to know about common amateur tells, and b) the player is a stranger to me and likely to think I'm an average fish. This will ensure you get the most use out of your tells.

When playing against players you play a good amount with, obviously the benefit you get out of these things goes way down. Players will either adjust by ignoring your behavior, or worse they'll figure out some pattern you have.
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09-03-2015 , 06:40 PM
Personal experience.

I don't do this in the games I normally play. People who know me will easily see through a false tell if they are good and most players who aren't good won't see the tell anyway. You run the risk of leveling yourself if you mess around in this area.

To echo Mr. Elwood, I have used it against good players who 1) don't know me; and 2) might be prone to think of me as a weak player. I pulled it off in the Main Event with AA on the button and got the SB to shove Ace-Rag into me. But that was a perfect convergence of events with opponent and I being completely unknown to each other (other than what Hendon Mob may have said), a little table talk, several hours of playing, and a big hand at a time when my image was a bit loose. It's not something that I can imagine happening with any regularity.

PUSATFH has it right: It's a great feeling of accomplishment when it works and I would add that the confidence gained from a moment like that can sharpen you and help you play better if you can keep your head. But it's elusive, potentially dangerous, and not something to be relied upon.

YMMV
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09-03-2015 , 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dickwiggle
I don't think that incorporating this into your game is every going to make much of a difference in a fishy game but against a bunch of solids, I think it is nice to have in your repertoire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PUSATFH
pulling off a false tell is one of the funnest things to do at a poker table. true though, dumb players won't pick up on it and smart ones will see through it.
Even the most inexperienced players will notice things such as nervousness and the changes in your table talk. At higher stakes I'm sure it's different, but at a lot of 1/2 and 2/5 tables you'll have someone that you can use false tells on. It's important to know what sort of person you're trying to give false information and how they'll interpret it. I think false tells are something you can use often enough that you should definitely have them in your skill set.
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09-08-2015 , 09:45 PM
Watch players when they stare down another player looking for tells. If you notice a tell and think the player making a decision may have picked up on it, then you can consider incorporating it into your behavior as a false tell against that particular player.
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09-09-2015 , 06:19 AM
Levelz. I.e Act weak when you are weak because you are supposed to be strong.
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09-11-2015 , 01:14 AM
I play higher stakes in NYC underground games and you see the same players a lot, and there is a high percentage of great players. I play with guys sometimes who seem to be mind readers to me.

I, personally, am a rather animated, chatty Italian person and have a lot of tells, I used to try to lock myself down in terms of tells but have developed a game where I integrate my tells into my game. I feel like I have gotten pretty good about figuring out what tells guys are picking up off me and letting them win smaller pots off me when they pick up those tells throughout the night. Then, during a hand where I have a monster for the first time I change it up and I would say that I basically make my living off this move.

There are guys that I play against that have a dead read on me and I can't figure out where they are picking it up and, honestly, I hate those guys and just avoid them.

One tell a lot of people pick up on me is that I am impatient and played internet poker full time for so many years I make all my decisions instantly but think a long time when I am weak. This is my most common "rope-a-dope"
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09-18-2015 , 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by apokerplayer
....Having said that, I think there are times it can be smart to use false tells. I've used them before, but very rarely. Mainly when I'm a) playing versus a decent player who I believe is likely to know about common amateur tells, and b) the player is a stranger to me and likely to think I'm an average fish.
I had this situation exactly, a few days ago. I was unknown to anyone at my table. From the table-talk it was clear these were all regs who knew each other and play a lot. I rivered the nut flush, bet, and went into scared-stiff mode, other than a lot of eye blinking and an occasional self-soothing hand to the face or neck. It did feel sort of bush league, but I got the $75 call.
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09-22-2015 , 02:08 AM
I am pretty certain a guy I know well 4 bet shoved over my 3 bet with KJ off in a 40K the other night because he saw me swallow deeply after I 3 bet.

I knew he was watching me. And just thought it might work , then he spazzd out.
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09-24-2015 , 05:17 PM
Against certain players, I like to snap call a bet on the flop to represent a draw and induce an overly large turn bet trying to push me off a draw when I actually have a strong made hand.
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09-29-2015 , 11:54 AM
Here's a particular false tell that I've used successfully both in tournaments and cash. However, it has to be in the right situation against the right player and can only be used once against any particular villain.

Situation, playing against an aggressive player with a made hand. I.e, flopping a set. Here you check call on the flop. You can make a moderate bet on the turn or check call. Now the river. You eye your chips and start handling them as though you're trying to decide how much to bet, then you quickly decide to check and tap the table and perhaps sheepish smile like "I can't put out more money on this". Once you touch your chips and then decide to check, the aggressive player will go after you.

I did this with trips knowing this aggro guy was trying to buy the pot. As soon as I decided to check he put me all in. I instacalled saying "I call, what do you have?" He wasn't going to show until I insisted that I paid to see his cards. Pure bluff. As I scooped up all his money his buddy was saying "Why would do that?" and he replied "I thought for sure she didn't have anything".
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09-30-2015 , 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Very Josie
Here's a particular false tell that I've used successfully both in tournaments and cash. However, it has to be in the right situation against the right player and can only be used once against any particular villain.

Situation, playing against an aggressive player with a made hand. I.e, flopping a set. Here you check call on the flop. You can make a moderate bet on the turn or check call. Now the river. You eye your chips and start handling them as though you're trying to decide how much to bet, then you quickly decide to check and tap the table and perhaps sheepish smile like "I can't put out more money on this". Once you touch your chips and then decide to check, the aggressive player will go after you.

I did this with trips knowing this aggro guy was trying to buy the pot. As soon as I decided to check he put me all in. I instacalled saying "I call, what do you have?" He wasn't going to show until I insisted that I paid to see his cards. Pure bluff. As I scooped up all his money his buddy was saying "Why would do that?" and he replied "I thought for sure she didn't have anything".
I think you have to be a female or senior citizen or otherwise perceived as scared money for that move to be particularly effective.
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09-30-2015 , 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AALegend
I think you have to be a female or senior citizen or otherwise perceived as scared money for that move to be particularly effective.
Wow.

We should play poker some time.
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09-30-2015 , 01:12 PM
Okay so I just saw the word "perceived". I do think I get a lot more action than the average man because men will try to bet against me thinking they can push me into folding. After I've played with someone for a while their perception changes.
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10-23-2015 , 03:59 AM
False tells aren't worth it unless you have a ton of experience.

Sure they may help from time to time but far more often, they will hurt your case more than help.

Most tells are actually someone's idea of a false tell.

Many false tells end up just earning you less similar to a FPSY play.

Against a player who sees through it, it can be exploited for a much larger loss.

It can backfire when putting a player on a different track of thinking early and cloud your reads later where mistakes are much more costly.

Once youve started using a false tells, you get into a weird place of needing to know who knows about this practice when showdowns revealed them in the past.

You may notice when a false tell works but your almost never going to spot when it backfires leading you to a false impression of helping when they're actually creating a net -EV leak you can't figure out.

And so on...

Maybe the only spot I'd apply them is when you notice your own tell you have trouble controlling, and then you might try to apply them in order to balance as a temporary fix.

For example, I have a bad short term memory and playing tired or bored creates an issue of occasionally forgetting my suits when not suited and causing me to take a quick peak 2nd peak.

To correct this I started taking second peaks when I was suited as well, but even then, if someone starts making assumptions based on seeing this, it can still cloud your reads later.

It was a lesser of two evils I had to put up with until I learned how to correct the original tell.
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10-23-2015 , 06:16 AM
My impression has been that a "tell" is no defined thing, but rather a idiosyncratic moment where you pick up on hand strength.

Allthough when your opponent is last to act and you go to bet and he grabs his chips to call you should bet 90% of the time. Or when that 3rd heart hits and the young kid is shaking all over to bet you can almost always fold a set.

But like its been mentioned before, it's the person who is betting is perceiving strength and may not have the monster we think, but a monster to them.
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10-23-2015 , 06:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TakenItEasy
False tells aren't worth it unless you have a ton of experience. <Snip>

It was a lesser of two evils I had to put up with until I learned how to correct the original tell.
Nice post.

Also trying to pull off a false tell and it not looking organic is going to make your real tells very vivid and defined.

Last edited by TheCake; 10-23-2015 at 06:25 AM.
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10-23-2015 , 11:20 PM
I play regularly with someone that is very bad at false tells. It takes a bit of acting skill, this guy doesn't have it. When he says, "I don't even know why I am calling with these cards" you know he has something. Even if he was good at it you can only use false tells sparingly. You do it once people catch on.
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10-24-2015 , 10:54 AM
It's definitely something you can throw in against regs that you know are watching for that sort of things. The casual player won't always even be watching your hands while you cut out chips for a bit, or won't notice or know what it means. More well read or experienced players know that shaking hands is generally a sign of a big hand. Almost every time I see someone who has badly shaking hands pre flop I assume some large % of the time they hold QQ, KK or AA. Ofc you also have to take betting patterns and sizing into account but generally if they seem very nervous and their hands are shaking they have a big hand. People with a holding like J10, A9 suited, middle suited connectors etc. seem more calm.

I have used the false hand shaking before in certain spots (in tournaments) like where I am on the button or one behind the button, the blinds are going up, and I have a semi-decent holding but do not want a call, I just want to steal. So for example I've got A4 suited, while I am counting out my chips I take the entire stack of one color, cut it out into rows of 5 and throw in the slight shaking of my hands. When I restack my chips and toss them gently forward into the pot I also have my hand shake slightly. It's definitely not something you want to overdo but every once in a while could help. I have gotten comments about my hand shaking and that they believe I had a hand.
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10-29-2015 , 10:17 PM
I'm sure I have false tells without trying. I have a few tics and I suffer from chronic panic. So I might just exhibit nervous behavior at the table for no reason.
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10-30-2015 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYFHO
I play regularly with someone that is very bad at false tells. It takes a bit of acting skill, this guy doesn't have it. When he says, "I don't even know why I am calling with these cards" you know he has something. Even if he was good at it you can only use false tells sparingly. You do it once people catch on.
Actually, that is not a false tell. Assuming you are reading it correctly, it is a first-level tell, weak means strong. The false tell would be, if he had a strong hand, acting strong, so someone with knowledge of tells would think "strong means weak."
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