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Spotted a tell at seniors event Spotted a tell at seniors event

04-21-2016 , 09:31 AM
In recent borgata seniors event . Female opponent tanked for quite some time after guy went all in on a paired board 5522 forgot the last card but it was an overcard i believe . A 5yr old could deduce the guy had the nuts. He had her covered by decent amount. I put her on two pairs . She asked the guy if she folds would he show? He shook his head said no. She finally called and he showed A 5 . Obvious that was a reverse tell hoping she would call thinking he was bluffing right?
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04-21-2016 , 02:48 PM
A lot of players will decline any request like that just to be consistent.

And why was it obvious that he had a 5 (not the nuts, by the way, but close to it)? What was his tell that indicated that he had the hand that he was representing?
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04-22-2016 , 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove
A lot of players will decline any request like that just to be consistent.

And why was it obvious that he had a 5 (not the nuts, by the way, but close to it)? What was his tell that indicated that he had the hand that he was representing?
The first sentence of your reply is prob the norm . I only came to the conclusion it could have been a reverse tell after thinking about it later on . When he refused to show his hand if she folded per her request it could mean a number of things
1. He wants her to call because he knows he has her dominated
2. He wants her to think its a bluff when he has the nuts so she will call
3. If he agrees to show she folds and he cant get any more of her chips
Bottom line on a paired board twice , its a very dangerous call regardless
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04-22-2016 , 12:57 PM
Generally speaking a player who volunteers to show after the hand is bluffing.

It's not anywhere near as clear when a player is asked about showing. Players may never show and without history you don't know this but then again all of your comments may be true as well.

Obviously you can apply OMC rules here. Lots of seniors will shove to make the chop look less appealing .. or they just have a strong hand in general.

I generally don't get into the show/don't show tactic unless the other player starts it up ... and I generally will always say I will show since I will have been showing cards to the table anyway in previous hands to set my loose image. So I'm the exact opposite of what the 'standard' is for this spot .. and sometimes that will garner calls I don't want, but that's poker!!

From a strategy point of view, unless the woman had '3 pair' then this is a spot to fold and live on in a tournament unless she already had 70% of her stack invested .. and even then you need to calculate BB behind against the chips gained from a potential chop. GL
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04-22-2016 , 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20
Generally speaking a player who volunteers to show after the hand is bluffing.

* * *

I generally don't get into the show/don't show tactic unless the other player starts it up ... and I generally will always say I will show since I will have been showing cards to the table anyway in previous hands to set my loose image. So I'm the exact opposite of what the 'standard' is for this spot .. and sometimes that will garner calls I don't want, but that's poker!!
There are a number of threads on the issue of how to interpret a player's response to the question, "will you show if I fold?" The consensus is ... well, there is no consensus. The meaning of the response is player-dependent, as demonstrated by the poster quoted above who describes himself as "the exact opposite of what is 'standard.'"

Thus, any response to the question "will you show if I fold" could be a tell, but it should be put into a broader context of how the player in question acts at the table. The response alone is probably not enough information by itself to reveal much about the strength of the player's hand.
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04-24-2016 , 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mxp2004
There are a number of threads on the issue of how to interpret a player's response to the question, "will you show if I fold?" The consensus is ... well, there is no consensus. The meaning of the response is player-dependent, as demonstrated by the poster quoted above who describes himself as "the exact opposite of what is 'standard.'"

Thus, any response to the question "will you show if I fold" could be a tell, but it should be put into a broader context of how the player in question acts at the table. The response alone is probably not enough information by itself to reveal much about the strength of the player's hand.
there are many ways to interpret the show if i fold request but i look at it more as a "what if " factor so i can not only sleep better but more important is the fact that i wont have to wonder throughout the tournament if i folded the better or worse hand . Not really concerned about getting some sort of tell out of the opponent
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04-25-2016 , 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellofaplaya44
there are many ways to interpret the show if i fold request but i look at it more as a "what if " factor so i can not only sleep better but more important is the fact that i wont have to wonder throughout the tournament if i folded the better or worse hand . Not really concerned about getting some sort of tell out of the opponent
Some players do like to know 'The Truth' ... but can they 'handle the truth?'

Either way it's nice to be able to move on by concluding a previous hand, but then again some players will tilt even worse when they find out they missed out on some chips or a player hit a one-outer on them while floating with nothing.

I show too much early in sessions but that's to set up for later hands and without the 'shows' I can't widen an opponents calling range in what I hope will be a bigger pot. GL
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04-25-2016 , 07:58 AM
To further clarify my comment from earlier ...

A player who initiates, starts the conversation or suggests showing is generally bluffing. The word 'volunteers' could just mean that they just 'agreed' to show by answering a request. Words have many meanings ... GL
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04-26-2016 , 03:47 PM
I wrote about this in my Verbal Poker Tells book. In my humble opinion:

There's not much meaning to be found in affirmative responses to this question. Players with both strong and weak hands are often capable of saying "Yes" to this. (For a simple explanation, you could think it's either because they're just relaxed from having a strong hand, or they're seeking a fold with a weak hand, because they're leveling you with a strong hand, knowing many people think it's a weak hand response.)

I think most of the meaning can be found in negative responses to this, especially the more agitated/rude/mean responses. For example, a bettor is asked "Will you show if I fold?" and she says, "Hell no!" or shakes her head in an irritated way, or says "Just play the game", it's become much more likely she's got a strong hand and is relaxed. Just because bluffers typically are not comfortable saying challenging or aggressive things for fear of being spite- or anger-called. Most bluffers don't even like saying no to this question in a simple way; they'll usually be quiet or else say something neutral and conciliatory like, "Maybe" or "I don't know."

I would not call the behavior in your post a reverse-tell. I just think it's generally going to be a tell. (Though of course that's not always the case, just generally.)
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05-05-2016 , 05:58 AM
I would say yes and if he folded still muck. Where is it written that the one question you have to answer honestly is, "Will you show if I fold?" I think that's ridiculous. Every other question you are allowed and required to lie, but that one is an honor code ... lol ... when really he is just trying to get an advantage over you by asking.

Saying "yes I will show" is no different than saying "yes I have the nuts" or "I have pocket aces" or anything else. It's not even an etiquette breach, imo, to do it. Sorry, try it on someone else. It's also arrogant, insulting, condescending on their part that you can't see through the question and you are going to beg them to fold straightforwardly when you are weak. Get out of here with that crap, bro. You need a little work on your psycholinguistic game. Not me: you. Nice try but you just leveled yourself.

Something like that. Then show him a hand when you chop in a walk. I mean if you're feeling froggy.

Last edited by Synchronic; 05-05-2016 at 06:07 AM.
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