I may be new to the party but your comment: "Firstly who to watch? I am pretty useless at using my peripheral vision! I tend to concentrate on one player at a time." jumped right out at me. Even an average player is going to pick up that you are watching him. I personally, if I saw you doing that, would watch you for the hand that you QUIT watching me.

I have to agree with Joe Totala, that you should learn to identify true and false behaviors.

Here is something you might do. Read Psychology of Poker and learn the lessons it teaches. It taught me that you identify WHY someone is playing, that you can not hide real tells but you can become a blank or add so much noise into the nonverbal communication stream to make it non-understandable (the kid in acting school may be doing that to you) that others are tossing you true and false tells at the table all the time, you should standardize your table behavior and then toss random behaviors in the mix and that tells = anxiety. Anxiety is present when you have weak or strong hands, that small pair that needs to be cbet, the straight on a flush board, the set on a paired board all create stress. Even flopping a royal produces anxiety because you are hiding your glee, and want to get as much money in the pot as you can.

I love when a known reader of tells comes to my table, they usually suck at it and are exploitable. Don't just spend your time on tells.

Hi Buccaneer, and thanks for your comments.

I pretty much agree with everything you are saying. Of course, if I am being disciplined (finding that tough in places) if you are involved in the hand, I should be watching you- and there won't be and hands where I am not. But I accept your premise- it would be better if I were more subtle about it. Funnily enough, only 1 player has commented on it, and it was a few weeks ago when I was in a casino I have never played before. Even then I think it was just a joking comment about me being tight- he said something like "it's not fair- this guy is just sitting here analysing us!". I think people seem so ignorant on tells generally that they all assume they don't give any off/don't think about it- even if someone is watching them (except when they are directly in a hand with them maybe).

Zachs book does some of what you suggest from the psychology book, the why is an integral part of the explanation of the tell. If the book you recommend goes deeper I think it is beyond my effective level at the moment.

re. your final comment- well that may be true, and I don't. However we can only learn by practise, and everyone has to start somewhere. In fact it reminds me of a little anecdote from last week. I was sat in the bar before the comp chatting to another player when a 3rd player came to join us. He had just signed up for the beyond tells intro videos. He was telling us both at great length about how you can read the strength of someone cards by how long they look at them. I just kept my mouth shut, and hoped I got AA against him- I would stare at them until the ink faded before putting in a big bet!! Sadly we were on different tables, but it's filed away for next week.

Two tell examples, both involve me holding JJ:

1) Flop T high, I'm first to act, and value betting. Turn also low, I continue valuetown. River a Q. As I'm starting chip-dance, villain aggressively acts like he's about to bet stack of 5's ($100), but then 'realizes' he's out of turn and just has aggressive grip on the stack. He seemed somewhat unexperienced overall. This act happened quickly and wasn't extremely blatent (although it was to me). I read him as having a T that he wanted to get to showdown with, but didn't like the Q on river. I thought he'd call a decent bet reluctantly. So, I bet a hundred, he called, and JJ was good.

2) I'm in SB with JJ, sandwiched between two very aggressive players (they're pretty good also). Folds to Button, he raises. As I'm chip-dancing out a 3-bet, BB says, "one...", like she was about to bet one hundred then realized I hadn't yet acted. I make it clear I've noticed this, and that it's my 'reason' for just calling instead of raising. She doesn't raise (I was hoping she would since I kind of was challenging her to with my call, and she was verrry agro). Flop has QK, I'm done with hand. Turned out they both had crappy A's and JJ would have won.

So, misread/misplayed number 2. She fooled me into calling instead of raising. I was having bit of hard time figuring her out, she was constantly chattering. She was definitely going for the overload your opponents with movements, tells, and talk to just make a confusing mess. Her erratic behavior worked in this case. Funny though, since situation was similar to number 1, they both wanted to continue in hand cheaply and used aggressive act to try getting there. Classic Caro strong = weak.

Keep working the tells!
Mike

Hi Mike,

I really like your first example as it shows exactly where tells are great. They take you away from guessing your JJ is good vs the overcard into a place where you are confident. However I feel your pain with #2- but as I said above, we have to learn to do this. I'm sure you have heard/read the idea about not wasting your time fancy playing against idiots because they simply won't recognise what you are doing? Well I suppose the good news is you can at least say you are good enough to recognise what a good player pulled off against you!

the most reliable tells are betting patterns imo, which maybe classify as a "tell", if you pick up on an actual physical tell that is consistent with the betting pattern. I play both live and online, (easily over 1,000 live tourneys over last 10 years low to mid stakes)

I was playing with this lady in a tourney the day before this hand. After she busted, I over heard her telling a friend of hers that was still in the tourney she just lost $1,000 playing blackjack. I remembered that she was an action player at the poker table who was capable of making big bluffs. The fact that these tourney buy-ins were for less than what she was willing to gamble in pits factored into my reads on her.

So next day, we were at the 200-400 blind level, 50 anti, and chip average was likely around 17,000. She was sitting on about 11-12k from a 14K starting stack, I was also short with only about 10K. were along way from getting into the money in this 80+ player $140 tourney. two limpers, she's on the button, I'm in SB with AJo. I was half expecting her to raise on the button as I'd seen her make moves in spots like this before. I was deciding what I'd do with my AJo, while I watched her look at her cards. I picked up something in her facial expression that she was weak, and it even looked like she was going to muck, then she reached down for chips and raised to 1,600. I thought about just shipping, but ended up just calling. Both limpers fold (lol). If she raised a little less, I'm guessing the limpers might of called as well.

I looked at her face after I called, and she looked nervous. I'd seen her look quite confident before in her pre-flop bets when she actually had a raising hand.

Flop A52 rainbow. Bingo, I've hit my hand, I'm either way ahead or way behind here.
I'm not likely on a draw here, so if she's betting this board for value, allin would be silly.

I check, she went all-in, rather quickly. I tanked for a minute, reviewing the betting patterns I'd seen from her both yesterday and today and decided her physical tells seemed consistent with a bluff. It just seemed like a bluff, I called and she table her 83o.

I dodge the gutterball for the double up, and she goes allin and knocked out of the tourney shortly after that.

I've folded AJo pre many times against a solid tight player's 4x raise pre. if I feel like I'm racing at best or dominated more often than not. Against this gambler in a classic resqueeze spot, I probably should have shipped pre. She gave off several tells, but ultimately I just hit the flop. I should be behind if her hand is strong enough to raise 4x pre, then go all-in on an Ace high board, she should have at least AK or AQ. Most people would just bet 1/2 to 3/4 pot for value.

Her body language, facial expressions, and hand movements would be hard for me to describe, but my read was she was making a button move.

Her almost spaz all-in after I checked flop again just seemed weak, unless she was using some 2nd level over-bet hoping I'll make a crying call with a weaker hand. Just couldn't give her enough credit to pull off that move.

I rarely make use of live tells, but I'm usually pretty good at reading hand strength based on betting patterns, factoring in stack sizes and stages of the tourney (basically the Harrington method).

Continue your tells research OP, as I find your research and methods interesting.


I can give you one more classic tell that I see everyday, and it is pretty solid. If somebody is playing with chips, thinking for a while, then they finally check, they are rarely going to check raise you. They probably want to see another card free or cheap. They will usually just fold if you value bet pricing them out of any draw they may have or call if the price is right. When they don't look that interested and check, or check fairly quick, and then you bet the flop and they raise you, they are rarely bluffing. Maybe semi-bluffing with a strong draw like nut flush draw, with over-card or two, or flush/straight combo draw they are willing to race with if you call.

along the same theme, If your action is first, and they want you to check, they often pick up chips as if they are going to bet. They do this with weak hands that have showdown value. If it's the river, and you check, they usually just check behind. If you bet for value, they usually fold unless the price is right to look you up based on their hand strength.

gl in your tells project.

Hi Bayou, and thanks for the kind words.

I'm not sure if I am improving or not. Playing on Friday, I found it really hard to keep my "tells discipline". I think I set out with a plan to develop a system that would have me constantly aware of the table, pulling in data and analysing it. That doesn't seem to be happening- at least not in the systematic way I predicted. I think the reason seems to be so many hands just don't really go anywhere, and gradually my focus drops. However I am definitely picking up more awareness. I am also starting to bring my tells into my "normal" play more. I am definitely playing with some extra tools in my arsenal.

Last Friday I was doing a pretty decent job of predicting peoples responses and actions. Like Bayou said, this was run alongside what I knew of them as players, and also as Zach said initially- within the framework of solid poker fundamentals.

Something I noticed:

The players who scare me the most, and I was most aiming to use tells against are the "action" players. The ones that will see a flop with anything, and will make big bets both as bluffs and value bets. These guys are really tough to get a read on- I think because they just aren't bothered! So they don't show stress. They are out for a Friday night of fun and poker. I don't think I have a stress tell on any of them- so I think I need to watch for betting patterns.

The thing I was trying to avoid by using tells, was simply guessing whether someone was bluffing/value betting. I don't feel like I am any nearer. However with many other players I do feel like I have a much better idea of their hands- shifting their ranges to account for any tells I am spotting. I mentioned a couple of weeks ago I had "abused" the tells process by calling a big bluff from a guy who was demonstrating classic post bet weakness tells, even though I hadn't base-lined him. I was at his table again last Friday, and I got to see him make several value bets. He was much more relaxed- I could see the difference immediately. It would be hard for me to quantify exactly what the differences were, but they were startlingly clear. Hopefully I can take that to the bank plenty of times in the future!

So- it's not developing exactly as I thought at the outset, but it is definitely improving. It is also improving other areas of my game, such as general awareness of the table and players actions. All I need now is a cash- because I think I have been running dry since I started!!

Just a quick update.

My youngest son has been ill this week, so we've been up several times a night for a while. This means whilst I did play last week I was half asleep at the table and I decided to miss poker this week altogether to try get some sleep!

Anyway, we will be back on track next week!

Hi all,

Well sons illness, then being very busy at work, then son being ill again has meant not much poker, and that has meant no updates for a little while! However I did play last Friday for the first time in a couple of weeks- and guess what- I saw a tell!!!

Finally, after weeks of trying I picked up a great one!

I have noticed that many of the times I spot a tell, the hand doesn't go to showdown, and the effort is wasted. Even if it does get that far, if the player lost he might muck his cards leaving me similarly in the dark (with some limit depending on the exposed hand). In fact, going back to my recent tiredness- you really do have to be playing your "A" game to keep track of everything.

So what made this tell so good? It was a weakness tell- which means the fold confirmed it!

A player 2 to my left (I am now following Zacs advice and concentrating on the 2 players to my left where possible) looked at the flop, and then pondered a while before checking. He looked like he was deciding how much to bet, then thought a check was the better option. This is a weakness tell- he has nothing, but wants to look like he has a decision to make. He was acting to discourage the player yet to act from betting.

Sure enough, player #2 put in a bet, and the cards went in the muck.

Next time I spot him pondering before a check, I won't be allowing any free cards! I say next time because shortly after he knocked me out with pocket 7s against my KK on a flop of 3,5,7 rainbow!

Such is life- but I'm glad to have such a useful tell on a guy I play with a lot.

OK, a slightly strange update today!

I've been running really badly the last couple of months, so I felt it was probably a good idea to put the tells project slightly to one side and just go back to fundamentals again. So I reread a couple of strategy books and refocused. This brought immediate results with a min cash last week, and a tournament win last night!

Now that might sound like I am suggesting this tells malarkey is no good. I'm not- it's quite the opposite. However it certainly isn't working in the way I imagined. I don't think I ever seriously expected to be staring down a player and be able to tell he was bluffing because of the way his eyebrow twitched! However the self-discipline of trying to work tells has improved other areas of my game- as well as bringing in a few snippets of information as well.

I don't think I am very good at spotting tells. I am generally less than subtle and my wife will tell you how unobservant I am! I am seeming to find it very hard to maintain the level of focus to pick a lot up- last night I played in the same seat all night until the final, and I don't remember making a single decision based on a tell. However I do remember making observations about players (to myself- obviously), and this is indicative of a generally improved level of focus. I remember being annoyed at myself when I let a hand completely pass me by as I chatted to the players around me. The problem I have is that I don't want this to become a generic blog of a mediocre player, so unless there is something specific to do with tells that I can add to what I have already written, I won't post it.

That's not to say at all that my exploration of tells has been a failure. Far from it. But what I haven't developed (yet!) is a systematic, laser like skill for reading players consistently. I definitely do pick up signals and hints- and I am definitely more aware generally. But it is also much harder than I thought it would be, because you need to maintain constant attention and focus. This isn't exactly always true in my very social Friday night game! In fact it can be bloody hard work sometimes- especially after a week at work.

Well, a different update from the last! Having taken a step back, and gone back to ensuring I was playing my best solid TAG style, I have made 3 successive final tables and won one tournament! However as I said last time, this isn't a brag/whine blog, but a tells blog- and I picked up 2 great ones last night. Now I am wondering if the 2 things are linked? By playing TAG I am making far less marginal decisions, which means I have more "intellectual space" to consider tells. I don't know- maybe it's just a fluke.

Anyway, the 2 tells. Firstly the reason why they are so good. This goes back to why I wanted to look at tells in the first place. I hate guessing! I really don't like being in a position where I don't know where I am, and both these tells helped me out in these potentially difficult spots.

The first was a very standard situation. I am SB with about 60BB, and villain is BB with 15-20. He is tight, solid, but also aware enough that the blinds will be catching him up soon and he needs to make a move. He rarely wins these games, but often runs deep and frequently will min/mid cash.

So it folds round to me. Without even looking at my cards I know I am raising. I obviously have to look at my cards (rags), and fire out a standard raise. I am expecting a fold or shove. He calls

Flop is completely uninteresting rainbow.

Now this is the spot I hate. I know I am almost certainly behind, but I have no idea where he is. Is he slowplaying a decent hand for value, or did he have a marginal hand that he wanted to see a flop for? The book says C bet. I know that's the right thing, but a 5ish BB C bet will mean I have now committed 8BBs to a pot with nothing, and OOP. If he calls again the only betting option available to me is to put him all in- again with nothing OOP. I can start to see me blasting away 25%-30% of my stack in an effort to steal a single BB and the antes. I just don't like doing it. Do I simply wave the white flag here on the flop and check? He might check behind, but he probably has just enough "game" to read the weakness in my check and shove either on the flop or turn.

I mull it over for a little while, and decide to fire again (in times of indecision I default to the aggressive option normally). I start counting out the chips for a bet. As I am doing this, he reaches for his chips, and starts counting them out himself- either for a call or a raise. Now in the past I would have spotted this (no doubt I am supposed to!) and gone back through the thoughts I outlined above, before congratulating myself on a wily check saving myself some chips! However now I know better. Zach refers to this as defensive chip handling. It is a signal to deter someone from betting. It was a text book example (literally).

Zach has a video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f68Ft3gK1c

Now if he doesn't want me to bet, then I should obviously do the exact thing he doesn't want. No guarantees- he might still call/shove unhappily, but at least I now have some guidance. I am no longer firing out blind- I am firing out with some information. That makes me much more comfortable. Sure enough, he pauses for a moment and folds- and I pick up a small pot that might have got away from me. Just as importantly, I can take my time betting into the Villain in future, and see if he does this regularly.

Tell #2 didn't actually involve me in the hand. I was sat next to a player that- quite frankly- terrifies me. He's a great bloke, and we are pretty good (poker) friends. He isn't a good player really, but he will play any 2 cards if he thinks it's cheap enough (one standard raise is normally cheap enough!) will chase and bet draws aggressively, and loves to play big pots. This means he regularly gets huge chip stacks, but they also normally implode in spectacular fashion. He causes lots of action on the table and generally causes havoc. The reason he terrifies me is all the above reasons in the last example- but multiplied by about 100. My middle pair could be miles ahead, but I know it's likely to be a big pot before I find out- unless I simply let him draw for free (and that might not stop him either). The problem is that whilst he might be a losing player, he will destroy a lot of other (better) players tournaments on the way to being knocked out! He is simply there to enjoy himself before winning/losing a small fortune on roulette!

This is exactly the player I need tells to help me with. I feel like I need something to move me away from evaluating "what are the chances he has/doesn't have it" and comparing it to the odds I am getting, and moving towards being able to tell whether he does/doesn't have it. Once again, I am looking to move away from guessing and into an informed decision.

Anyway, the short version of the hand is Kev (the player in question) is involved in a hand on a reasonably wet board. He hasn't been at the table long, and has a below average, but not critical chip stack. The river comes over, and Kev makes a big(ish) shove. The other player tanks. Whilst he is thinking, I get the opportunity to watch Kev really closely. Whenever I have tried this before I have never been able to spot anything- basically he always looks relaxed because he is simply having fun and enjoying himself. He loves big bets- whether strong or weak- so I have never been able to see anything. However this time it was different. When he was all in, and waiting, I saw real- but very small- signs of stress. He was sat in quite a relaxed posture, as always. But (and this is very hard to explain) there were lots of tiny twitches and shakes and facial things going on. I was sat next to him- I doubt I would have seen them from across the table (although I might in future now I have noticed them). As I watched it was like a light suddenly flicked on, and I knew he was bluffing. Even better- in this case the other player called and Kev laughed and turned over 2c 5c for a busted flush draw.

Kev & I tangle regularly, and I hope to be able to exploit this in the future. But I had almost given up on trying to read Kev- simply on the basis that because he wasn't bothered about the money, and he was always enjoying himself then he wasn't really stressed by a big pot/bet situation. I now know that isn't true.

So, 2 good ones both of which can be used to move decisions from guesses into informed choices.

Please......someone........comment!

Make that 4 successive final tables!
And 2 successive bubbles



Anyway, just a quick update today.

Firstly I have realised I am vulnerable to enjoying myself too much at poker. I was initially sat at a table with a couple of players I had never seen before- and probably unlikely to see again if their play was anything to go by. No joke, on blinds of 25/50 one of them made an EP raise to 2200. Neither lasted long, but both turned the table into a great place to be- unfortunately after half an hour I realised I was spewing off chips as we all had a great time, and I was barely thinking about odds and outs, let alone tells. I reined myself in, and got down to some serious poker. OK, this isn't a tell- but it reminded me of some of Caros (and many others) advice from years ago about playing in loud tables where everyone is having fun.

But the second part of the update is more interesting. When the 3rd table was broken to the last 2, who should join me but my old sparring partner Kev (from the post above). Obviously I remembered my read on him, and he had a big chip stack- and was sat 2 to my right. Everything was perfect.

I spent the next 90 minutes watch Kevs stack implode as he threw chips to all corners of the table- except me. And all the while I was watching, waiting, and making perfect reads. Well I say perfect reads- obviously a lot of hands weren't shown down. But every time he led out on the river, and was called, I had him read right. Maybe next week I'll get the chips!

FWIW, I'm enjoying your posts.

When you said (in your last post) that you were making perfect reads on Kev, what exactly were you seeing? The tell you mentioned already (micro signs of stress), or something more?

Has looking for those signs of stress caused you to notice any other behavior when he's strong? Have you noticed any correlation between the lack of tell and relative strength?

One thing I've read that makes sense: First concentrate on not giving off tells yourself, then move on to trying to read your opponents. The first will tend to yield larger and quicker results than the latter.

Thanks for the comment.

It's difficult to explain.

One of the impressions I got from Zachs book was that the divides between the tells were slightly artificial. For example- and Zach, please feel free to correct me if I am misrepresenting your work!- Zach talks about the eyes, about real and false smiles, about posture and other quite general behaviours that can be attributed as tells. I think I started out looking for those explicit tells- but have more come to realise that I am just as often looking for bits of all of them- if that makes sense.

I don't think I am subtle enough to discern if a smile is real or fake. But if I get time and opportunity I can start to spot bits of them- which actually build into a bigger overall picture. With Kev, the problem is he loves the game so much, he is never really under pressure- or so I thought. So he would recklessly throw his chips around and carry on laughing and having fun. Then at break he would win/lose more on the roulette than 1st prize in the poker.

So what I was seeing was when he was strong, there were no tells at all. In fact there isn't much of anything until the big bet hits on the river. What I have seen is he can just sit quietly- or chat- when strong, without giving anything off at all. He just looks quite serene. Funny, but as I am typing this, I don't remember him chatting when weak- but surely I can't have missed something that obvious could I?

However when he is weak, and he has led out, he still sits there impassive. But in his face he just looks uncomfortable. I can't really explain it any better than I did above, but he looks stressed and nervous. I guess these are the kind of things that the police look for when interviewing a suspect. Because they are so slight and insignificant they are very hard to explain, but once you have seen them- they are there! The difficulty is looking in the right place at the right time for the right thing!

Maybe Zach would be able to explain it better?

I'm going to both agree and disagree with this.

In the games I play most people are completely oblivious. I don't think most players get beyond assigning someone a label- tight, loose, aggro, calling station. That's about it. I was the same in many respects.

The second aspect where I will disagree is that unless you know what the tells are, how will you know what you are giving off? So you need to do some research at least.

However, where I will agree with you completely is that once I started to read Zachs book, I immediately identified a lot of behaviours I was doing. Strangely these were often deliberate "deceptive" acts that Zach blasted straight through. Nothing too damaging. Pausing and thinking for a while before checking (holding nothing)- to make players behind think I was considering a bet and maybe they should check too. Defensive chip handling was another that would fall into this category- although it wasn't something I did. As I read through the book, I simply stopped doing them all. This was far simpler than spotting things in others, and I am sure it has helped my in some unquantifiable way against other- better- players. As I said in the beginning- I think most of my opponents aren't watching for tells- so it might be a waste of time, but it's better to be safe than sorry! And since I know some of my weaknesses now (bad habits might be a better term)- well it costs nothing to try eradicate them.

Thanks for pitching in!

Well, things are starting to get interesting now.

I nearly didn't play last night- in fact I probably shouldn't have from an EV perspective. I have had a very hard week at work, and I was exhausted before I even sat down to play. However ROI isn't my only reason to play, and I had an enjoyable evening out- something well worth the £35 buy in I threw away in a single hand of abject stupidity having played really well for 6 hours! But this isn't a whine blog, so we will move past that.

There were a lot of new faces in the casino last night. A nearby, bigger, casino has changed it's Friday night game to a bigger buy in. I think our casino has attracted a number of their players who didn't want to play in the more expensive game. However the incidents from last night relate to 2 old regulars.

The first is the villain from the 22nd of August. That night I said he had shown real signs of stress on a big river bet which allowed me to call him. Well shortly before I blew up last night I got moved to his table once again, and observed him in a hand with another player. Once again it went deep and he bet all in on the river. I remembered my read from before- and was able to contrast it with his demeanour and posture this time. This time he looked far more comfortable and relaxed. He was clearly at ease with his chips being in the middle, and I read him as being strong. Sure enough when the cards were turned over he won the pot with a big hand. It was nice to be able to get (opposite) confirmation of my previous read (especially when you remember my last read was made without corroboration). What was also exciting to see is that in my local game at least I am starting to build up a bank of tells and players that I am capable of recalling. Funnily enough I reread this blog not so long back to remind myself of some of the things I had seen for exactly this reason.

The second story involves a very dangerous player. He is a decent player, but probably a little too fond of bluffing. He doesn't seem to make the final table as often as you might expect. By coincidence he is the brother of the guy I mentioned before that seems to give off so many tells that they are difficult to read. Anyway, he was sat 2 to my left from the start of the night, so I had plenty of time to watch him. I have tried to read him before, but never with any success. Last night was different. This guy watches the table a lot- he is always looking around. I started to focus in on that as something to observe. I noticed that there was a definite shift in his behaviour. Sometimes when he was looking round he was staring right into players faces, and sometimes he would seem to avoid looking into players faces and look at their hands/chips. Unfortunately the aggressive way in which he plays pots meant a lot didn't get to showdown (he is capable of folding too), which made it really difficult to match the 2 behaviours to strength/weakness.

In addition to this there are 2 similar tells that happen at different times that mean opposite things according to Zachs book. The first is what I call the WWW tell- waiting, watching, weak. If he is waiting for his turn and watching the players eyes, then he tends towards weakness. The second is post bet, when he has bet- then staring into eyes is a sign of strength.

Finally, as I said at the start, I was very tired- so I was finding it hard to keep everything ordered in my head. The upshot is I think I have gained a very decent read on this guy. I am slightly annoyed at myself as I think it might be a straightforward text-book case exactly as Zach describes. This makes me think I should have spotted it earlier. However the 2 contradictory tells does make it more awkward to correlate- you can't simply look for is he staring at my eyes, or hands- you also have to factor in the position in the betting round. However I am reasonably comfortable that I am onto something with him here- I would just like to double check when I am less tired before I commit too many chips to the read.

The reason this is interesting is that it means in recent weeks I have picked up 2 tells from players where previously I haven't been able to get a read. This might mean I am improving- after all I started this exercise 3 months ago. However I definitely think there is a degree of luck involved in spotting tells- you need to look at the right person at the right time whilst thinking about the right thing. So I guess the lesson is that all those players I play against I still haven't got a read on yet- well I need to keep trying.

And:

In my earlier post I asked if you had noticed any correlation with a lack of tells with Kev and his hand strength. Zach says in his books that, "the absence of a tell is not a tell"; I wanted to see what your experience was with this, and maybe at the same time see if it would prompt you to notice any tells of strength/comfort. Maybe now you'll start to notice not just small behaviors when they're weak/uncomfortable, but also start being able to notice deviations from their baseline which indicate comfort/strength? If you can do that, it may greatly increase the number of occurrences where you can make reads-based plays profitably.

And yeah, that would be funny if doing this blog gave you an epiphany regarding Kev chatting while strong. It reminds me of Zach's video analysis of Jamie Gold, and how he was just generally more energetic and boisterous when strong/comfortable.

Thanks for the observations.

I think Zach might have been talking in wider generalities in your quote. For example if we accept the post bet stare down = strength, that doesn't mean anyone who doesn't do it is weak. However if you have a player you know stares you down when strong, then no stare down will mean weak. (I deliberately phrased that as absolutes for clarity.)

What do you think?

No updates for a little while- that's because I was determined not to make this a generic run good/bad beat blog. Missed playing last week because the family were struck down with the plague, and I can't remember what happened before that! However last night I played. Actually I ducked out of my office party early to register just before entries closed. I had a couple of glasses of wine with dinner, had rushed to make the game on time, and was generally not focussed on the game at first. Luckily I was completely card dead for an hour, so didn't spew off my chips in over excitement!

Actually I won the tournament last night- but more importantly (for the purposes of this blog) I had a break through hand with regard to tells.

The breakthrough is to do with money. Because I am a tournament player, it is very difficult to assign a value to a hand in cash terms. A cash player can exactly work out how much he won in a pot- he simply counts the chips. But tournament chips change in value throughout the night. What I am getting to is if I were a cash player I could easily say "Zachs book cost me $20, and a tell in the book just won me $50. Buying the book was a good investment." Easy. However if I win 20000 tournament chips, I can't really simply describe that as £20 profit. However last night I won a hand through tells that I could easily attribute some financial value to.

It was on the final table, and surprisingly my regular nemesis Kev had made it through as well. I had been running good, and was a healthy- if not dominant chip leader. From memory there were 5 players left at this point, we were all in the money, but the blinds were really starting to bite hard. Kev was 2nd in chips, but players 2-5 weren't a million miles apart from each other.

The hand.

Kev raised in early position, and I called with KQ on the button. KQs was far too strong to fold against Kev, but I also didn't want to bloat the pot against him or open myself up to a 4 bet.

The flop came AA6

Hmm.

Not a flop I was keen on- especially as Kev had been seeming to play a lot of ragged aces. Kev led out for about 1/2 pot. However I also felt if he had an ace he would have checked there to try get me to bet. So I called.

Turn: 6

That didn't really help. I pick up the nut flush draw, but if he has an ace he made a full house. I felt slightly sick when he led out again for about half the pot.

I now never rush against Kev. When I have a decision that isn't automatic, I stop and watch him for a minute. The interesting thing I had noticed was that at the final table, with big blinds, short stacks and actual money on the line, Kevs stress responses were far clearer than earlier in the evening. I could see them as clear as day, and also see when he was relaxed and strong. In fact I noticed he had a habit of squeezing his back teeth together and flexing his jaw when stressed and weak.

I called.

River 10

well I missed again, and Kev threw out another half pot bet.

The pot was pretty big by now. If I won, I would be a dominant chip leader. If I lost I would be in amongst the pack. I watched his jaw flex over and over, and called with K high!

Kev simply said I missed, but I didn't turn my hand over, worried that he might have simply put me on the ace, but could actually have been bluffing with the best hand. I didn't want to look like an idiot by turning over King high if it had lost. Kev didn't want to look like an idiot turning over the random **** he had been betting! After a little good natured confusion about how was showing first (I know- but neither of us normally do anything like that! ) Kev showed an 8 high I think, and the table gasped as I showed the King high. I have a reputation as a tight, solid player. No one could believe I called with such a weak hand- but I was confident(ish) it was best. I would have felt like an idiot if I was wrong- but the read was solid. Someone commented that I was "playing the player, not the cards" but they were wrong. Kev can kill you by you assuming he is bluffing all the time. I was playing the read.

The funny thing was Kev told me his mistake was his river bet wasn't big enough- he should have shoved. He might be right- a bet of that size might have scared me enough to walk away from the pot. Or it might have cost him the rest of his stack there and then. He certainly has no idea how comfortable I feel playing against him these days. Everyone else is terrified of his unpredictability. Me, well he is like an open book at times.

As it turned out Kev came 2nd- so we were both happy.

So there we go- reading Zachs book & watching the videos (and keeping up the discipline of the blog and mini refreshers) has definitely paid for itself on the table!

Just to let people know- since the thread does seem to be getting plenty of reading, if little commenting, that I am still ongoing. It's just that I haven't really had much to report recently.

I probably need to go back to basics again- refresh the videos and book concepts in my mind. What I am definitely NOT finding, is that spotting tells is becoming any easier- it still only happens when I focus on it. However I do seem to be capable of playing a decent game and focussing- as long as I don't let myself get distracted by table chat or the like. It still feels a bit "lucky" for me to spot anything, rather than a systematic procedure.

Having said all that, I have my mate Kev nailed. By fluke we have been sat together quite a bit over the last couple of weeks, and I can regularly put him onto a reasonably accurate range. I certainly know if he feels strong/weak. Not that that always stops him! The bad news is I am changing my regular game to a bigger one, so I will be starting from scratch from tomorrow!

Feel free to chip in!

Great thread cobweb, I've been close to ordering Zachs book a couple of times now- and after reading this i dont think I'll put it off any longer. Also I'm guessing you play in Manchester, will you be playing the old trafford grand prix today?

Hi 7 bet. Yes, I do play in and around Manchester.

Not playing the GP- I don't really have time for a 2 day tournament at the moment. Also I really don't need another bloody dormant online account with £100 sat in it because I don't see the point in withdrawing it!

I better be careful- Kev might get to hear about this and spot his tell! I will change names in the future

There's been a bit of non-tell poker news in the last few weeks.

Firstly it was year end, and I finished with a solid 100% ROI over the year in my regular £30 game on Fridays. Slightly disappointing that I didn't play more bigger comps this year (there are a few £200ish tournaments I enjoy that are local) but time has been short with a young family.

However the Friday game has been changed to include an add on. My thoughts are you should always take an add on unless you are very polarised in chips (massive stack, no point or very short stack it might not be worth it) if you have serious plans to win the comp. I think it has made my regular game somewhat poor value.

If I take the add on it becomes £55 per week. OK, I make a profit over the year, but as we all know downswings can go on a bit! £55 every week is a bit much if I want to keep simply justifying it as a night out. But more than that, there is a £50 comp 10 minutes from my usual game which has a £5k guarantee as opposed to the £1250 guarantee we get. There is another casino about the same distance from my home which also offers a £30 game with a £2k guarantee. I have been happy to pass up the extra value in this casino for 2 reasons:

1) The players at my regular game are very friendly and enjoyable to play with- especially as I know everyone.

2) I am cursed in the other casino.

Cursed?

Does that sound a bit strong?

Well I have played there the last 2 weeks.

Last week I busted out early when my QQ made a set XX7Q on the turn. All the money went in and my opponent turned over 77. The river was the case 7.

This week I made the final table and was in the minor cash positions with one of about 4 big stacks at the table. A got dealt pocket aces for the 3rd time of the night. Got involved with one of the other big stacks who called my shove on the flop with a flush draw Anyway, he missed his flush but hit his runner runner gutshot straight.

Any, I promised this wouldn't be a bad beat whining blog- and luckily there was some tell action last night too.

I had spent half an hour or so rewatching some of Zachs videos. It had been a while since I had watched them so I thought I would freshen up their lessons.

I was in a hand having raised preflop. I missed the flop, but C bet as normal. Villian called- but very quickly. I remembered in this was covered in the video- it suggests a middle strength hand or possible draw- think 2nd pair or a pocket pair with overcards. This lead me to think that as long as the board kept reasonably safe I should keep firing as he would have to give up eventually.

Sure enough he gave up on the turn.

Not an unusual situation, or an especially big pot, I know. But often in these situations when I decide to fire 3 barrels I am guessing as to Villains strength. This time I felt much more in control. I wasn't simply hoping that he would fold, but it was a reasoned thought process. It could have been wrong, but it was bang on the money.

I got an email from Zach. Actually that's only partly true- I am on his mailing list and he sent out a circular asking for people that had bought his book to leave reviews. I don't have a problem with this- it is once in a blue moon. I actually like the emails he sends with further ideas and links- I am on a few mailing lists like this and they are all normally pretty useful and thought provoking.

I had already reviewed the book, so I am in his good books! However it did get me thinking about how I would review the book now, and whether anything would be different after about 6 months.

So here it is- my 6 month report.

Well, I guess the acid test of any "improve your poker" book is "have you won more extra money in poker than the price of the book". If the answer is yes, then the book is +EV. If not, then -EV.

Well those of you that have been reading all the way through will not be surprised that my mate Kev has donated far more than the price of the book. In fact he has probably paid for it every other week since I spotted his bluffing tell!

That aside, I think it's pretty clear that I haven't managed to build some kind of systematic approach to regularly pick up tells on any random player I happen to be in a hand against- or even at a table for a few hours with. However I do seem to regularly pick up bit's and pieces in a sort of random fashion. Frustratingly they always seem to be when people are in hands with other people- but that might be good/bad news. Good that I am paying attention and concentrating when not in a hand. Bad because it seems that maybe when I am in a hand I stop thinking so much about tells as I have to concentrate on all the other things involved in playing a hand. I do deliberately slow down to try give myself time, but I think I need to formalise my playing thought routine. To be fair this might cut out some of my other errors.

So I am picking up tells highlighted in the book- but not often. Especially if I do the right thing, and wait for confirmation before relying on it. However I do have to say that I can't remember Zachs interpretations being wrong. There have been times when the clouds open and I get a perfectly clear read which allows me to play with complete confidence. These moments are wonderful, and some of the comments made about my play as I have raised, called or folded in some strange spots have been great. I have folded AA on a king high rainbow flop; called an all in with ace high and raised with...... well no one saw those!! Every decision was absolutely correct- and I knew it every single time. So, it's not predictable when I will get a tell, but sometimes they might as well turn their cards face up.

Perhaps the biggest benefit to my game though has actually been the concentration and focus I now try to apply to my game. If I am tired (and it's not rare for me to play tired) then it's really difficult to keep up the mental intensity; but if I am fresh I am always watching the game. This means not only am I picking up tells, but I am much more aware of playing styles, betting patterns, hand ranges, etc. This has also made a real difference. I know who will limp/call and who will limp fold; who defends their blinds. All this information improves my game, and I now get it whilst looking for tells.

So, is it proving worthwhile?

Definitely. Yes, I need to improve my fundamentals. I play a solid mix of TAG with bluffs sprinkled in when the spot looks good, but I need to make improvements in a lot of areas. However tells were an area I had basically ignored, and I don't think I am alone in that. This means I have been able to add a significant string to my bow, and that has led to increased winnings. So it might not have been exactly as planned, but the book has improved my game, and paid for itself lots of times. What more do you want from a poker book?

I have just been reading through and enjoying this thread.

For NLH

On self-tells: I try and maintain a certain rhythm to my bets and motions at the table, while I'm involved in a hand. For instance I may count 3-5 ticks off in my head before I muck my hand or decide to play it. My experience is that the longer you take to look at your cards the more curious you opponents will be as well... Just one interesting side note.

On my opponents tells: I pay attention to their natural rhythm. Depending on the player this can mean different things be it strength or weakness.

In my experience correctly reading tells takes time. The best time to watch players and learn what means what, or their reaction is watching the flop/turn/river card come off the deck.

Well the updates are a little less frequent now, but that is purely because I am being strict on keeping on topic! This means I will only report in when I see something of interest.

JL, thanks for the comment. It is one of the things on my checklist- betting speed. I have to be honest though- I think I am not really subtle enough to pick up on minor variations here (a bit like the time taken to look at cards), however I do tend to notice very fast bets, and then look to see if the player is weak/strong afterwards. I have to be honest though, I don't think I have spotted a reliable tell here yet.

However it does fit into my update. I have said a few times I am much more generally aware at the table now than I was. This means I see more things that might be considered tells, or simply awful habits.

It was my pleasure last Friday to have a "senior" gentleman on my left. He was a very tight, passive player- although he loved playing any ace within reason. In addition he sat back patiently waiting for his turn to fold, or leant forwards and started messing with his chips (see below) if he planned to play the hand. These reads alone meant he was destined to be passing me chips over the evening (raise pre, check if an ace hits otherwise C bet 100%, check fold any resistance- rinse and repeat whilst printing money). However this wasn't his biggest weakness. When it was my turn to act, assuming I spent a little time thinking about what I was planning to do, he would start counting out his bet!! This meant I knew exactly what he was going to do before he did it and often didn't need to raise/c bet to find out where I was. I just paused and let him tell me!

I took him to the cleaners all night.