In a 1/2 NL game this weekend, I engaged in some table talk to induce a check on the river. My opponent began the hand by straddling on the button. I raised pre-flop with KK from the big blind, and the straddler was the only caller. I bet the flop and the turn, and he called both times.

By the river the board was A 8 Q Q Q. I realized my opponent had called the flop and the river with either an Ace or the flush draw that it had presented. Either way, I realized it made no sense to bet again. I also realized that I couldn't call any bet he might make, even taking into account the relatively small possibility that he could be bluffing in position with a missed draw or a smaller pocket pair.

Wanting to see a showdown anyway, I shrugged when the 3d Queen fell on the river and said something to the effect of, "I assume we're chopping," implying that a river bet would be worthless on his part. My opponent replied, "I have an Ace, too." I immediately tabled my hand and said "you win."

My opponent got pretty upset and told me that my comment "was bush league" and that I'd be really angry, too, if he did it to me. He said that he certainly would have bet if I had not implied that I had an Ace.

I apologized, but he continued to chastise me for a while. I did point out that I did not cost him any money because I had no intention of calling any bet, but I repeated my apology anyway.

I regret making the comment, mostly because it kind of ruined the mood with this player. I don't feel like I did anything that was completely out of bounds -- players make statements about the strength of their hands heads up all the time, and it seems to me that part of the game is determining which statements to credit. However, if I did something unethical, I don't want ever want to repeat that mistake again and would welcome comments.

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking.

Yes, table talk. No I wouldn't punish it if called as a floor. You might get a little black mark in my mental checklist as an angler, though, which might impact future rulings.

Having said that, as described, action isn't over. You've shown your hand, action on opponent, he can bet if he wants.

Every player at the table now looks at you as "that guy".

A couple of things...

First, I tabled my hand after he checked behind and I told him he had won the hand. I did those two things as soon as he acted to make sure that he did not muck the winner if he did, in fact, hold an Ace.

Second, I'd like to understand better why what I said might be considered angling, something I would definitely not want to do. I felt like what I did is similar to other common situations. For example, a player holding a full house and wanting a call after making a river bet when the flush draw hit might say something like "I guess you didn't make your flush after all," implying that a player holding the flush might actually be good.

Slightly less analogous, opponents facing a bet on the river might try to engage a bettor in table talk, and the bettor might say things in reply that imply a different hand than he actually holds in order to induce the action he wants.

Bottom line, I would just like to understand if I broke any rules. There are plenty of other reasons why I would not want to do something similar in the future, but I absolutely want to make sure that I don't cross any lines.

Prolly right around the point where "table talk" turns to "angleshot".

Within the rules as long as the room doesn't have a rule that prohibits talking about the contents of your hand in heads-up pots.

But if I was a random player at your table, I would make a mental note to not give you any benefit of the doubt in in the future. So I would stop fastrolling against you for example.

I never use words to induce a check or action when out of position. I always use acting tells and I always have to know if my opponent is a good player and observing me otherwise it won't work. Examples may be fast calling on the turn despite thinking I may be behind in order to make him check the river being scared I called so quickly. Rapid blinking when river card falls (this one I think works the most), looking down at my chips after river card and then checking. Verbal stiff more often than not gets you in trouble and many players tend to mistakenly view excessive verbal talk as meaning you're weak so you often get called or bet into anyway.

I had something similar happen to me the other day where I held broadway on an AKQTx board, so had the stone cold nuts. Guy checks to me and says something to the effect of "Don't raise the rake here" ($15 cap underground game) when I go to bet. I stupidly check behind and he tables two pair.

Being on the other side of it, I didn't think he (or you) broke any rules, but it still feels a little scummy. I've been playing for long enough that I should know better, so mainly I was mad at myself. However, if I had been less experienced I'd have felt a little cheated/angle shot even if not against the rules.

So my verdict on this is that it's within the rules, but it's ethically questionable and thus you shouldn't do it. Bush league, which is what your opponent said, is a fair characterization too.

Your OP doesn't make any mention of your opponent (or you, for that matter) checking the river. You said:
As described, action is on him (or maybe even you, though you'd have to be crazy to show your hand and then bet). If both of you actually did check, then the part of my post about action being on him should be discounted.

It's good that you fastrolled to prevent him from accidentally mucking a winner, but in this case I don't see how that really helped anything. If he has an ace, he thinks he's chopping it so won't muck. If he doesn't, your KK are beating him so if he mucks he's right to do it.

Anyway, what you did is right on the line of being an angle. As mentioned above, bush league is a pretty good description. This is why I don't penalize you for anything on the hand. But people who do scummy things like this will also often do worse, and my mental note will cause me to rule against you in future instances where you might otherwise have gotten the benefit of the doubt on a judgment case. You reap what you sow.

Using a lot of "speech play" will often blur the line at the edge of angle-shooting. I'd call this an angle, as you mis-stated the content of your hand to get a free showdown. Since you did it without intending to steal the pot, but just to avoid the bet, I'd say it was a minor transgression. But if your question was did you cross a line, my answer is yes. I generally think anyone who engages in a lot of "speech-play" is an (expletive deleted) and if you did this at my table I would definitely think you were "that guy" and I would watch you for an angle, because I assume the two go hand in hand.

idk if it's bush league... might just be amateur night at the apollo

I personally wouldn't have a problem if this was done to me but I guess I can see that it's pretty close to the angleshoot territory. I guess as a bit more of a recreational player, especially when playing in a live game I don't have as much of a problem with this.

Why are verbally saying something to the effect of 'I guess we chop' non-verbally acting like you just got sucked out on any different? I know that verbal actions are considered binding etc....

I don't know, when I read this I guess it could be construed either way but I don't have a massive problem with this, especially in a more loose and relaxed atmosphere.

OP did not even mis-state his hand. All he said was he thought it was a chop. It is possible he could have thought other guy also had KK.

Anyway, OP did nothing wrong here. The move had the purpose of preventing him from getting bluffed out by a missed draw, and likely would have been effective for that. Doesn't even change results of the hand otherwise. Nice hand.

I guess it can be angle-ish but I wouldnt make too much of a fuss over it. Comparable things get said often HU in cash games. IMO if anything the guy may have thought he was beat and didnt bet hoping for the chop because I see no reson for your opponent to not bet the river anyways (barring uncapped rake)...he just got mad after the fact more likely as a ruse.

Sent from my LGMS330 using Tapatalk

Did he actually check?

If I were him, once you showed KK, I would have bet.

+1

The next ruling which is actually close would go against the OP because he has now given up Benefit Of The Doubt.

I mean you kinda angled but really other guys fault for not protecting his action and giving away his hand

If you REALLY assumed he also had KK, its fine, otherwise what everyone else said...not well received, kinda slimy as it did influence action, without that being said, he now bets, whether or not you were going to fold is irrelevant, he must show a hand to the table to win, if you just check and he bets, you fold he can muck and not have to show.

Usually when I get that kind of Hollywood speech it allows me to rethink the hand through and make a better decision, shame on him for not reading it better. Sounds like a nice instashove would have really messed with you...

Since a couple of posters have asked about it, let me clarify my OP. We both checked. Neither of us acted out of turn or tabled our hands until the action was completed. My opponent announced his check and declared his hand after I had checked and made my statement. I tabled my hand after my opponent checked behind and said he was holding an ace.

I apologize that part of my post wasn't sufficiently clear.

I'm kinda surprised at the responses. This isn't even in the neighborhood of an angleshot in my opinion.

Poker is a game of deception. Saying effectively "I have an Ace" is no different from betting to "represent the Ace" which isn't something anyone would call questionable.

Honestly if I were V and thought about it at all it would make me more likely to bet an A.

A couple days ago board is Q944 on the turn. I bet and V says "I think we both have the same hand" I respond with "We can't both have quads". Is that an angle by either of us?

ETA: V is just grumbling because he fell for an amateur attempt to get him to check back.

I'm going to guess that you typically play at higher stakes? The reason I say that is because with more experienced players, none of this is going to work. Pros and good players are just not going to fall for this kind of stuff. And if someone is dumb enough to fall for this at a 5/10 or higher table, he's likely to get zero sympathy from the regs, dealer, or floor because he should simply know better.

However, in a low-stakes game full of inexperienced players, a move like this is definitely in angleshoot neighborhood IMO.

I think a big part of the problem is that the OP wasn't clear that there was actually checking going on. Given that there was actual checking, I agree it isn't an angleshot.

However, lying about a hand like this has a good chance of killing the mood at the table and will be damaging to your image. If you don't care about these things, fair enough.

The other one where the guy says "let's not raise the rake" when rake isn't capped yet on the AKQTx board so he can show down his two pair is scummier by far IMO. There is a legit reason why I shouldn't bet in that hand. Part of the problem with this hand is that not everyone knows how rake works, so a rec player may assume betting hurts him financially if you have what you verbally said.

Another example would be if you jam on someone at a friendly table and say "Save your money, I have it, I'll show you." and then they muck and you just muck, or you roll over a bluff. You didn't break any rules, but the game will be worse and you won't ever get the benefit of the doubt from any of those players again. You can decide if it's worth it.

I agree with him. This is not an angleshot and whether its an angleshot or not is not dependent on the likelihood of its success.

I do agree with the other player that its bush league.....but that is a different issue from being an angleshot. And it reflects equally poorly on the player who falls for it.

I play 1/2 & 1/3 - hardly high stakes.

In my game if you do this you'd get a bunch of "Oh no you didn't" and "Oh that's how it's gonna be" and it's game on.

I really don't understand. To me what OP did is an amateurish attempt to influence action in a way that's perfectly legal and ethical and completely within the rules of the game. The victim might be salty and complain a bit but no one is going to think less of hero for making the attempt and it's far more likely to get the game gambly and good than to hurt it.

Perhaps it's an East coast thing vs other locations. Not sure. Pretty sure LA would have the same sort of reaction. Don't know about Vegas.

There's a huge difference between standard table talk on the turn and making your opponent believe you're announcing your hand at showdown after the river is out.

If OP clarified that checking did actually take place on the river, then yes, it isn't an angleshot at all. Sorry if I missed that.