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Etiquette/OPTAH question Etiquette/OPTAH question

04-10-2017 , 09:35 PM
Last week I was at the casino with a few friends for a friend's birthday. We were there playing 1/1 together, as it's the only casino to spread these stakes and we were there mainly for fun. My friend maybe gets to the casino once or twice a year tops, while I go once or twice a month (it's an hour and a half away) and mainly play 1/1 when I go. There's usually only one or two 1/1 tables going (if at all), so it's usually a fairly specific group that plays there, so I've played against many of them regularly, and the dealers know me to be there often enough. I also read the boards on here so am pretty well versed in the rules and etiquette.

Onto the hand: I'm in the 5 seat, my friend in the 4. They get involved in a hand with someone in seat 8. I'm not in the hand. I was chatting it up and not paying attention to the action until the river. It goes to showdown on the river, and my friend tables their cards and says, "I missed everything" and puts the cards down face up on the table in front of them. I don't see seat 8's hand because I'm focused on my friend's tabled hand and I say, "No you didn't, you have a straight". They say, "Where?", and I point out "7, 8, 9, 10, jack" (the 10 in my friend's hand completed a weird gutshot). Another player on the other side of the table (I honestly don't remember if it was the other player in the hand or not) says I breached etiquette and it's one player to a hand and I only should have said anything if the dealer made a mistake and shipped the pot to the wrong player. The dealer agrees. I then said that the hand was tabled and cards speak. Had they shown me their hand, said they missed, and mucked face down, I would have said nothing (at least until later, well after the hand, in the interest of making sure they pay closer attention in the future), and I said as much to the table. Another person who wasn't even playing, but watching his buddy play, chimed in that it was poor etiquette as well, but it's someone I've played with before at this casino that is probably one of the most obnoxious players I've had the displeasure of sitting with. Drunk, rubs it in and celebrates when he sucks out, makes out with various skanks while at the table, pretty sure he almost threw up at the table once. Not exactly someone I'm interested in taking etiquette lessons from. I was surprised however that the dealer agreed that she should call the hand and ship the pot and I should ONLY speak up if she makes a mistake. And surprised that OPTAH was invoked as I didn't help my friend read their hand while the hand was in play, nor in response to an action on the river. I made sure to wait until the hand was properly tabled and pointed out their mistake when they said they "missed everything", because cards speak. And also mainly so their opponent wouldn't get their hopes up about winning the pot if they didn't have a straight beat.

So my question is, was I out of line? I absolutely would have done the same thing if it were a stranger sitting next to me and they did the same thing. I'm wondering if part of it was because the other players knew we were friends. And their "accusations" weren't angry and there was no real arguing, just lively discussion and everyone was cool. I just like to think I have a handle on what's appropriate at the table and wanted to make sure I didn't do anything wrong. So did I?
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04-10-2017 , 09:40 PM
I am a little confused. When you say "they" and "their" are you talking about multiple players or just your friend?

You didn't do anything wrong if his cards were properly tabled. That said, I am not sure if I would speak up immediately before the dealer has a chance to announce the hand. I would make sure to speak up before the dealer would muck the cards though.
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04-10-2017 , 09:41 PM
Its fine, even if a good dealer doesn't need the help, hand was tabled and pointing out an incorrect verbal declaration is ok
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04-10-2017 , 09:42 PM
You did nothing wrong. You pointed out to him what the dealer was about to say anyway, if she's any good. His hand takes on its appropriate value as soon as the cards are tabled, whatever anyone might say. LOL OPTAH.
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04-10-2017 , 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by e_holle
You did nothing wrong. You pointed out to him what the dealer was about to say anyway, if she's any good. His hand takes on its appropriate value as soon as the cards are tabled, whatever anyone might say. LOL OPTAH.
That's what I thought. I'm wondering if the dealer agreed with the other player because she didn't see the straight, either, and wanted to save face by claiming she would have called the hand anyway.

I've done this before when a player tables a hand and I can see the dealer looking at the tabled hands with a little confusion, I'll say, "Their 8 makes a straight" or whatever, and they'll usually nod, thank me, and ship the pot. But this dealer made it seem like I was out of line for correcting my friend's misdeclared hand.
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04-10-2017 , 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
I am a little confused. When you say "they" and "their" are you talking about multiple players or just your friend?

You didn't do anything wrong if his cards were properly tabled. That said, I am not sure if I would speak up immediately before the dealer has a chance to announce the hand. I would make sure to speak up before the dealer would muck the cards though.
It's in reference to my friend. My grammar leaves a little to be desired.

And the cards were definitely properly tabled. I was very careful to make sure they were before opening my mouth.
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04-10-2017 , 10:56 PM
If I were your friends opponent, I would have had no problem with what you did.
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04-10-2017 , 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle
If I were your friends opponent, I would have had no problem with what you did.
Nor would I. In fact, I've been in showdowns against opponents when they misread their hand, table it, and no one else notices, and I point out that they have a straight/flush/whatever, even if it costs me the pot. Tabled cards speak, and I don't want to cheat to win.
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04-10-2017 , 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy
Its fine, even if a good dealer doesn't need the help, hand was tabled and pointing out an incorrect verbal declaration is ok
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_holle
You did nothing wrong. You pointed out to him what the dealer was about to say anyway, if she's any good. His hand takes on its appropriate value as soon as the cards are tabled, whatever anyone might say. LOL OPTAH.
I'm going to disagree ever so slightly. I think that OP should have stayed silent initially, thereby allowing the dealer time to call out the straight as the winning hand and ship the pot to OP's friend. If the dealer didn't see the straight and was about to muck the friend's hand and ship the pot to the wrong player, it would be appropriate at that time to speak up and ensure that the pot was awarded correctly.

Let me emphasize, however, that there was nothing intrinsically wrong with what OP did, I just think it's better to give the dealer sufficient time to announce the hand, if for no other reason than to avoid other players erroneously telling him that he violated OPTAH.
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04-12-2017 , 12:39 AM
Other players have a responsibility to prevent a pot from going to the wrong player due to a hand being misread. But it is not the job of players not in the hand to call out hands before the dealer does. That often leads to mistakes. I've seen times when some player calls out "straight" and so the other player mucks, thinking it was the dealer calling the hand. Then the dealer correctly reads the hand and there is no straight. Fix a mistake, fine. Do the dealers job before he gets a chance to, no. If you saw that your friend won a hand before the dealer did, you wouldn't start pushing the pot to him, would you?

Players not in the hand can correct a mistake but it is not their place to start reading hands before the dealer does. Just like when a guy bets and a player asks the dealer how much the bet is. Before the dealer counts it, another player blurts out 65. So the player says call. Then the dealer finishes counting and says 165 because there is a black chip behind the 65 that the "helpful" player didnt see. Chaos ensues.

One dealer to a table. Chime in only to prevent a mistake from happening.

Last edited by browser2920; 04-12-2017 at 12:45 AM.
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04-12-2017 , 01:44 AM
You are 100% in the right. The hand was tabled before you said anything and didn't say anything that could have influenced the action or outcome at that point. These people are a bunch of whiny ass bitches. **** them.
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04-12-2017 , 01:42 PM
According to Robert's Rules of Poker -
Quote:
Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.
In other words (under this rule set which is pretty well regarded but certainly not the law of the land in any given room) you're not only allowed but obligated to speak up if you notice an error is about to be made.

Now the dealer hadn't yet read the hand and it might be slightly better to wait until the dealer reads the hand before you say anything - just because if there are 5 different people all speaking trying to read the hand it can get confusing. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with saying to your friend - no you have the straight. And if you wait there's the risk that the dealer scoops up the best hand and puts it in the muck before you can speak up.
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04-15-2017 , 11:56 AM
This is not OPTAH issue and any player who says so is an ignoramus. Also, it's rather stupid to say you should wait until a mistake is made before correcting it. At that point, chips could be wherever and that just wastes time, not to mention that cards might get mucked. The dealer also sounds like an idiot. Of course the fairest and fastest thing to do is mention it quickly. The dealer should shut and not say anything other than confirmation of what you just said. Only an overly sensitive dealer lacking in confidence would complain here.
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