In a NL game, two players were contesting a decent size pot. After the river card was dealt, Player A bet without announcing a specific bet size. He grabbed a stack of his chips, and he cut out three stacks of five chips.

Two of the stacks were all red $5 chips. The third stack had four red $5 chips and one white $1 chip buried in the middle.

Player B tanked. The dealer did not announce the bet size, and Player B did not ask how much the bet was.

Under these circumstances, it is appropriate for a player not in the hand to point out that one of the chip stacks is dirty while action is pending?

Would the etiquette/rule be different is the dirty chip buried in the third stack were a black $100 chip or a green $25 chip?

I'm not sure if I'd say something myself until someone actually makes a mistake (e.g., dealer says, "The bet is $75"), but I don't think there's anything wrong with you saying, "How much is that?" and going from there.

It's the dealer's job to announce the bet size.

I would not say a thing unless it's called and the dealer doesn't notice it. The bet has already been made so it's not changing, and the bet being $4 less is unlikely to make a difference in how the hand plays out. You wouldn't be changing anything, just creating a distraction.

I'm also not getting mad if someone does point it out. Some people, especially at the lower limits, just seem compelled to speak up.

If I've seen the player pull angles before and he tries to hide a black chip or something then MAYBE I say something, but mostly I'm just staying quiet and letting things play out.

I'd probably keep my mouth shut unless dealer was asked how much the bet was and got it wrong. Even then, I'd probably only bother if it was a material difference, and certainly now a $4 difference (white to red). If someone through a couple of blacks into a stack of reds I might mention that.

Although there may be some rooms with a different procedure generally in No Limit a dealer should not count or announce the size of a bet made by placing chips in the betting area .... unless asked by the player facing the action.

In the case of a $1 chip mixed in the reds I don;t think this is significant enough for another player to bother getting involved in pointing out at this stage. On the other hand if you make a simple statement that the stack is dirty (as opposed to announcing an amount) I don;t think you have done anything wrong. If its a significant amount just saying hey there is a dirty stack should be sufficient to alert players.

If the dealer counts and announces it wrong then by all means speak up about the error.

As a dealer if I think a chip is not clearly visible and is significant I will make it visible. typically this is an issue if the bottom chip of the stack is a high denomination chip but set back a bit so that it appears to be in the shadow f the chips above. This is a very deceptive situation. If you have a single black chip sitting in the middle of a stack of reds I don;t think this is deceptive at all and should be plainly obvious. Even to colorblind players the different edge markings should appear obvious (some tournament chips don;t have edge markings and if these are in play then more caution should be used to make sure that the denominations are not mixed among each other .... but colorblind players know of their disability and should ask for a count if the amount of the bet is important to them)

At first glance I thought it was a no brainer to point out that the black chip is obviously a mistake and warn the guy that he is potentially calling a bigger bet than he thinks. But what can happen is that the guy who bets realizes a mistake and gives away tells which is clearly screwing him over. I'd probably point out it is a dirty stack to protect the deciding player from any angles because burying a high denomination between smaller ones is obviously deceptive and accept that he might get mad about it.

Yeah for the white vs red I'm not pointing out the difference unless the dealer says it wrong or the caller puts in the wrong amount.

In the theoretical though is there necessarily anything wrong with putting out a bet that's intentionally misleading to the opponent? My gut is that it's wrong and if someone sneaks 2 black in with 13 red we should point it out if the dealer doesn't but one of the local rooms here has the policy (not always followed) that dealers NOT announce bet sizes unless the other player asks. And furthermore the room poker director has said (here on 2+2) that the reason for the rule is the poker is in part a visual game and he actually wants to allow the calling player a chance to make a mistake on the bet size.

I kinda disagree with that all around but I'd assume in this room it would be out of line for anyone - dealer or player - to point out that those 15 chips were 265 and not 75.

I think we should distinguish between a chip mixed among others and hidden chips. If the placement of the chips makes some of them non visible.... that is a problem

If its simply mixed or non standard size stacks .... that fact should be readily apparent to the opponent who has the otion to ask for a count.

I don;t think not announcing bet sizes is about letting players make mistakes, in the sense of being tricked into believing a bet is $X amount when it is realy $Y. Its about about letting a player represent his bet in a physical way which he thinks may convey strength or weakness to have his opponent make a mistake.

If I shove out a mass of chips trying to make it feel like an imposing bet, then if the dealer is going to break it down and announce the amount it may not seem as imposing......

But I don;t want anyone who is actually counting the bet to be misled about the bet. So hidden chips should be exposed.

I think the most important reason for dealers not counting the et is time saving and allowing the dealer to fous where the action is, not where it was.....

That's such a BS argument and if he ever plays poker I hope he gets angled every single hand no matter how low the stakes are.

Not announcing the bet is fine. If a stack has a big chip mixed in the dealer should knock it over and place the big chip to the front, but still not count the bet unless asked.

Not announcing bets is obviously fine but the reason why that is a rule in that place is beyond ridiculous. Basically it's screaming "go angle each other and try to hide your big chips as much as will be allowed because this is a visual game".

I prefer, and it's mostly standard on the east coast, that when a bet is placed (except an all-in) the dealer should announce the bet amount. But when someone cuts out 3 stacks of 5 red chips, it's kind of self explanatory.

I wouldn't speak up unless the bet was called.

What good does it do then?

because that's when the money goes in the pot, and if the dealer doesn't see it's $4 short, the other player shouldn't have to over pay the bet.

Also, 71 vs 75 is not that big of a difference where I feel the need to intervene.

I play on the East Coast and do not know this to be standard. But anyway, why is an all-in the exception?

I suspect that there may be a difference between what is standard by terms of rule book/ procedure book and what dealers actually do. Many dealers announce bet sizes because they think it speeds the game .... despite being told not to do this by management. As a result many players feel the standard is to do it because so many dealers do it.

I've read several poker room rulebooks and none say for the dealer to count out and announce every bet. Some even specifically say not to do this unless the player in turn asks. Still, most dealers do it in cash games to speed things up and players seem to expect it so I do it too.

Tournaments I never count unless asked.

Re: Single dirty chip
Yeah, $4 is enough to let slide without a ruckus.
For $20 or more, I'll bring attention to a dirty stack.

I've paid for my lessons on verifying stack sizes and bets. I don't need anyone else to pay, they don't have to pay me, but learning to pay attention at the table is a worthwhile lesson.

The great dealers don't announce the bet size every time, but they do know when to announce it. Lots of factors at work, I'm OK with the great dealers being non-standard, when it helps the game.

Its interesting that many here assume that others are beng takeing advantage of a by a visible chip.

Its also somewhat interesting to me that nobody seems concerned about the effect on the bettor if the dirty stack was accidental and now when you point it out you are possibily pointing out the fact that the player may have accidentally bet more than they intended and this could trigger a raise that might not have been made if fact hat the bet was accidental wasn't pointed out.

Generally you shouldn't be pointing out dirty stacks after meaningful action has ocurred, it can be a distraction to players, create information and influence action

That is relevant, but its importance is far lower than making sure that the bet amount is clear. Large denom chips should be visible, both in your stack and when bet. Having a dirty stack in your bet is not acceptable, and should be clarified and corrected, whether or not you additionally state the true bet amount.

True, the dirty chip should be on top or otherwise distinct. If it is, then I won't say anything unless someone misstates the bet.

In general higher denomination chips must be visible - i.e. on top or in front. Why is it ok to hide them in a dirty stack when making a bet? If the player making the bet made a mistake by accidentally having a high denomination in their stack they are the one who needs to wear the mistake, not the one making the decision to call who should be able to assume all stacks are clean. Is it OK for me to use sleight of hand and slip a high denomination from the top of my stack onto the bottom of a stack going forward when making a bet, placing the dirty stack at the back so my opponent can't see? If players can't assume stacks are clean this will lead to every single bet being asked to be counted out by the dealer just in case.

Once again I have no idea why you think a black chip in the middle of a stack of red is not visible