I live in South America. Poker isn't really as popular here as it is in the US. The casinos here have poker rooms, but the floor officials often make mistakes when it comes to the rules.

I was playing in a game with blinds of 25-25 in local currency ($1.60-$1.60 in US dollars). I had AK, raised pre-flop and got two callers. Flop comes Kxx. I'm first to act and I bet 200, one guy folds and another guy raised to 500 (i.e. 300 on top). I try and raise to 800 (i.e. 300 more on top), which is the minimum raise. I am told by the dealer and the other players that I need to raise to 1000, since that is double what the other guy raised to.

The floor gets called over, and they tell me I'm wrong, and that I need to raise to 1000. That is ridiculous. That's not how NLH works. They're trying to tell me that if I bet 100, the next guy raises to 200, the min-raise would then be 400, 800, 1600, etc. That's ludicrous.

After the game, I double checked with another floor official and he told me I was right. The next day, I asked yet another floor official, and he also told me I was right.

A few days later, I was playing at a different casino, and the same situation occured. At this casino, I was basically told by the floor officials "we make the rules here. If you're playing at your house, you can make whatever rules you want."

I understand each casino can make its own rules, but if they're advertising "no-limit hold 'em," that is a specific type of poker game with specific betting rules. If they're going to use different rules, they should make that clear to me before I start playing.

Agreed.

haha I didn't even see that someone posted "Agreed." in your other thread. Basically, the thoughts you are sharing are very agreeable

Holy **** that is a lot of arguing to prove that you're right about something I would have shrugged and said "fine, 1000" about.

People get this wrong all the time. Here's how to explain it so it's easier to understand:

Pretend you bet 25 chips after the flop and your opponent raised an additional 1,000 on top of the 25, for a total bet of 1,025.

It's very clear he raised 1000 more, right? Ok, so it's obvious if you reraise the minimum is to raise another 1k on top.

It helps to illustrate with 2 different color chips.


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I did end up saying "fine, 1000" (and I won the hand with my AK vs. the other guy's KJ).

That's besides the point, though. It wasn't about that hand. It's about future hands, and playing by the rules. If a hand comes up in the future where I raise to 1000 (about $65 in US dollars) and the guy raises me to 2000, I want to be able to raise to 3000, and not be forced to raise to 4000.

I play no-limit Texas hold 'em. The betting rules for that game are very straightforward and simple. If the casino floor officials want to change the rules (or are ignorant of the rules), then we are no longer playing no-limit Texas hold 'em. We are playing another form of poker. They should let me know this before I buy in.

I did talk to the floor officials after the game, and the following day before sitting down, and they told me I was right, and that if the situation came up again, I should talk to them. What pissed me off more was what they did at the other casino, where a similar situation came up and I was told "our casino, our rules." That's fine, every casino can make whatever rules it wants, but I should be informed of this rule change/variation before I buy in.

What if I went to a casino and they had a rule stating that aces were low instead of high? What if I then went all-in with AA and lost, all because I was not informed of this casino's rules? I know that is kind of an extreme example, but still. No-limit Texas hold 'em has specific rules. Any change or variation to those rules should be made clear to me before I buy in.

The rules are whatever that room says they are. Obviously this "double the bet@ stuff is nonstandard, but there's no use raging about it. You know what the rule is now. Agitate to change it now if you want, but getting pissy about how it's not real NLHE is dumb. This is a small thing. And how often are you min re-raising anyway?

The only reason I'm pissed is because there was no way for me to know that the rules were different at this casino. I could have been seriously screwed over by being ignorant of that rule in certain situations. It could have potentially cost me a lot of money.

If I had bet 500 chips and someone raises to 1000, and then I announce "raise" (intending to raise to 1500), I suddenly now have to put 2000 in the pot (because I announced "raise"). Had I known the rules, I would have probably flat-called instead. If I end up losing that hand, I'm going to be pretty pissed that I wasn't told the rules in advance.

Now that you know some casinos use non-standard rules, you should ask about their rules in advance. Nobody is going to tell you.

That said, can you please link us to the universal rules of No Limit Texas Hold'em that show how much a minimum raise is?

Here is a link with the betting rules for NLH:

https://tonybetpoker.com/rules/texas-hold-em-rules

Here is a Spanish version of NLH rules (which I showed to the floor officials here in South America):

https://www.poquer.com.es/reglas-holdem-sin-limite.html

I assume you were being sarcastic since there are no "official" NLH rules (i.e. every game/casino can make the rules whatever they want). However, by that logic, a casino could have a rule stating that deuces are high, and then when I go all-in with AA and lose to 22, or lose a hand to someone holding a J-Q-K-A-2 "straight," they can just say "our house, our rules."

Where do you draw the line as to how much leeway casinos should have when it comes to changing the rules?

All I'm saying is that when I sit down at NLH game, I expect standard NLH rules. Any variation in the rules can potentially lose me money. If there is a nonstandard rule being used, the casino should at least acknowledge that it is a nonstandard rule, instead of acting like I'm the one who is confused about the rules.

I have heard that in Europe you have to double the last bet size to raise. Would like to hear from people who play in different parts of Europe to see if this is in any way true...

This hasn't been mentioned yet, but purposely making min raises is pretty "non standard" in itself. The only time when the minimum raise rule is relevant to your success as a poker player is when someone else goes all-in and you need to know whether or not that re-opens the betting for the original raiser.

For instance, Hero opens on the turn for $50, V1 raises it to $175, and V2 moves all in for $325. This would be a good time to know what the house rules are. Does this re-open the betting for V1 in this instance?

In the examples you're bringing up you're just being whiny. No self-respecting NLHE player is going to suddenly run -EV because they're "forced" to raise to 2000 when they announce a raise to a 1000 bet. If this rule is costing you money your issues run somewhere outside of the house's rules.

It doesn't come up very often at all. The only times it came up was the one time I described, and another time pre-flop when the BB was 20 chips, someone raises to 120 (100 on top), and I tried to raise to 230 (110 on top) and was told I had to make it 240. None of these rulings had any negative impact on the hands, but there are certain scenarios where not knowing the rules could cause me to lose money.

You're right, the min-raise rule rarely comes up because people (myself included) rarely raise to the minimum. That's besides my point, though. My point was simply that the rules should be clear from the start of the game. Any non-standard rules should be known to me before I sit down at the table. Any game advertised as "no-limit Texas hold 'em" should use standard NLH rules unless explicitly stated otherwise.

If stacks are deep enough, min-raise rule could definitely affect the game in a big way. Let's say my stack is at 20,000, chips in a 25-25 game. A guy bets 500, I raise to 1000, he 3-bets to 2500, I 4-bet to 5000. If the guy wants to 5-bet, he forced to raise to 10,000 (according to this casino's rules), when really I should be allowed to raise to 7500. If I then want to 6-bet, I am forced to go all-in for 20,000 (i.e. 10,000 on top). This is absolutely ridiculous, and totally changes how the hand is played.

That is an extreme example in a game with very deep stacks, but it could happen. When there's so much money on the line (I know it's low stakes, but to me it's a lot of money), the rules should be clear to everyone before they sit down. There should be no ambiguity. If any non-standard rules are used, this should be told to players before they sit down (or posted on the casino's website, or whatever).

THERE. ARE. NO. STANDARD. NLHE. RULES.

Every room can have its own ruleset. There is nothing you can do to enforce this idea you have that rooms should play by "standard" rules.

If you want to know about a specific rule, ask. Or ask the table when you sit down. Or observe for a while. Possibly they will have a ruleset you can read, but it's doubtful. You'll just have to muddle through just like everyone else. That's life.

Feeling entitled and then acting like a victim in a casino where everybody is trying to take your money is not a good plan.

No casino is going to tell anybody who sits down to play any of their rules. Ever. To them their rules are standard.

OK thats not entirely true. In tournaments I have seen Floors announce that if you don't put your chips in a rack when being moved to a new table then you will be disqualified from that tournament.

Also, in a bounty tourney sometimes they will announce that throwing your bounty chip in means you are all-in.

But in terms of minimum bets, order of showdown, out of turn action, OPTAH, oversize chip rule, turning your cards over before showdown, throwing your cards forward face down at showdown, etc. casinos will not voluntarily tell you about their rules whether or not they are standard. How would they do that?

Most casinos won't show you their rule books even if you ask to see them. I think they don't want people to try to find ways to angleshoot. Some casinos won't even tolerate hypothetical questions. I have even seen a Floor refuse to tell a player what the ruling would be on a different player's out of turn action until after the player acted.

You are still stuck on something that really will never happen. People tend to click it back online but not in casinos. Still, when it comes up, ask for a Floor, get a ruling, and adjust your strategy to deal with it.

I have seen it come up rarely and then usually in the context of somebody going all-in for less than double the bet but more than the prior raise. And when somebody tries to raise on top of that the Dealer says "no you can only call". And then a math class breaks out and mostly the players get it right and the Dealer concedes.

Try to have some fun at the casino.

You start your post by mentioning how poker isn't very common in South America and that the floors often make mistakes, and then when that very thing happens you're suddenly in shock?!?

This IS a straight in many parts of the world, and you WILL be told "our house our rules."

I'm not "in shock." I will keep playing at those casinos since I'm making money. I was just annoyed at how they handled the situation. That's all.

Instead of getting annoyed, you should get used to it. You know that it is important to not get annoyed and that the floors frequently make mistakes, so train yourself to not get annoyed when such frequent events happen.

I don't think the min raise rule is so fundamental to NL Texas Hold'Em that we have to call the game something different if we want a variation in the min raise rule.

Fundamental to NLHE is 2 hole cards, 5 community cards, 4 rounds of betting and a table stakes max bet. Pretty much most things beyond that are quirks and not a fundamentally different game.

I will tell you a secret. if you are not familiar with the rules of the casino you are playing in, it is your job to ask and get familiar. if you walk into a casino, the casino really is not obliged to anything, they can do pretty much whatever they want. and if they are playing no limit holdem where a minraise means to double there is nothing you can do about it.

in my expierence some casinos who do not really care much about poker(because poker generally is not the best income for a casino) they use that raise sizing rule to make it easier for the weak players (btw those you really want to play) to understand how it works. (actually that is a good thing)

a little advice for you. do not walk around and bother x different floormen with that nonsense. because to them it is nonsense, and they, in reality give a **** about you, unless you are someone who is regular feeding slotmachines or playing black jack and I assume you do not. you also said for you it is a lot of money... and they know that. it is their job knowing who can afford loosing money and is important for them. so if you bother them with some nonsense and 2nd guess floor decisions, it is likely someone will tell you to go some place else to play poker.

OP your situuation is mildly annoying the first time it happens. That's it. Now you know. Deal with it as it is. House rules, dealer and floor descisions vary from place to place and happen all the time. This live poker. Play there or don't play there. Those are your choices.

Madlex alluded to it, and Dinesh pointed it out directly....there are no universal rules as to how a poker game is run. The most common rule sets are Roberts Rules of Poker, or TDA (for tournaments). You can ask your floor, away from
the game, if they follow RRoP.

Rooms have different rules. Dealers don't always know the rules and may give you bad information. Floors will usually back up the dealers, or may not always understand the complete situation when they rule. If it is meaningless (like this case) let it go and just remember what the house rule is (but confirm with the room manager that this is in fact the actual room).

Pick battles worth fighting. this does not change the game in any significant way.

To reiterate-there is no governing rule set on how NLHE is played.

Also what is written in their rules may not be what is actually enforced in their casino.

I've played a lot in Europe (by default) and have never seen that rule in a casino, but have heard people talk about it. But in regular play that just doesn't come up that often since most people at least double the last bet anyway. I'd say it's likely that at least some smaller casinos in Europe have that rule.
That's called 'around the corner straight'. I've played in games where that 2-high straight was the lowest possible straight.