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Old 03-07-2017, 02:57 AM   #1
WestNoob
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Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

Hi all,

So I just got angled and I thought it was a great one. So let me share the story and discuss if we should apply it in our own games.

Live casino game, the hand itself is not that relevant but rather what the villain did on the turn. So overcard to the board came on the turn, villain pots it into me, except he puts in a stack of chips first, then another stack of chips after.

Obvious string bet of course, the dealer called him out on it and he briefly argued a bit and accepted the dealer's ruling. Now, the angling part is that he obviously knows the rules as he's very comfortable with the chips and betting line and knows how to play as well.

The question now becomes...what does it all mean??

Trying to bluff by this move or it's a reverse angle with the nuts??

I jammed with a bluff myself and got snapped off by the nuts. But what a great angle that was.


The question now is...how can I use it for my own benefits in the future? Always do it with the nuts and expecting villain to lvl himself like I did in this case? or...
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Old 03-07-2017, 10:47 AM   #2
madlex
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re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

If you get unlucky, you might pull angles like that a couple of times until you do it to the wrong guy who waits for you in the parking lot later that night.

Better case scenario would be another player calling you out on it if you tried it for the second time in the same card room. Awesome example of former EPT director Thomas Kremser calling out an angle shooter during a hand:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tkxcBy...ature=youtu.be

This forum is not for people to get advice on how to shoot angles or cheat in poker games. That's like asking in a basketball forum how to flop or in a retailer forum what kind of store is easiest to rob.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:57 PM   #3
WestNoob
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re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

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Originally Posted by madlex View Post
If you get unlucky, you might pull angles like that a couple of times until you do it to the wrong guy who waits for you in the parking lot later that night.

Better case scenario would be another player calling you out on it if you tried it for the second time in the same card room. Awesome example of former EPT director Thomas Kremser calling out an angle shooter during a hand:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tkxcBy...ature=youtu.be

This forum is not for people to get advice on how to shoot angles or cheat in poker games. That's like asking in a basketball forum how to flop or in a retailer forum what kind of store is easiest to rob.
I give credit where credit is due. It was a great angle, got me stop thinking about the hand itself but rather what the angle means. So how do you combat someone who pulls angles like that? It's not like you always play against the same person, and if person can easily adjust his range with the same angle next time.

Also, I find the "let's not think about the angle but play fundamentally good poker" advice very useless. Poker is a game of information and you are just given this extra bit of information, how can you just ignore it and not at least consider how it fits into the bigger puzzle?

Lastly, angle shooting gives certain people an unfair advantage in poker. I don't think we should just hide our heads in the sand and pretend that it has nothing to do with us in live poker. It is fair to say that we won't use it to our advantage if we choose so.

Going with your flopper analogy, the floppers play in a league where everyone knows everyone, and the ref can punish the floppers in certain sports. (not really basketball yet but in soccer absolutely) where anglers are not punished in poker. Also, in basketball, the downside of flopping while not called a foul, but you give up your defensive positions and allow your opponent to score easily, if that counts as a punishment. What are the punishments for anglers in poker? The EPT director called him out, but was the angler given any penalties at all? What did he have to lose from angling? And what disincentives are there for him to not angle?
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Old 03-08-2017, 09:48 AM   #4
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re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

Combat angleshooters by talking to the floor and getting them banned or finding another game.

Angleshooter has a draw and wants to make you think it's worth potting.

Thread should be locked, because angleshooter is freerolling for info wo pu ishment, an should be banned by his own argument. Encourage all to report it.
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Old 03-08-2017, 10:42 AM   #5
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re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

Well, you are going after one data point, so I'd be a little leery of learning anything from 1 example from a player you've never do it before. I would have assumed he was just excited and was thinking maybe I should have bet more when he was pushing out chips.

Banning the person for saying it happened to him sounds like an extreme reaction.
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Old 03-08-2017, 11:58 AM   #6
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re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

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Originally Posted by WestNoob View Post
I give credit where credit is due. It was a great angle
Do you also give credit to a great cheat or somebody who runs a successful con on you to steal your money?

Quote:
Going with your flopper analogy, the floppers play in a league where everyone knows everyone, and the ref can punish the floppers in certain sports. (not really basketball yet but in soccer absolutely) where anglers are not punished in poker. Also, in basketball, the downside of flopping while not called a foul, but you give up your defensive positions and allow your opponent to score easily, if that counts as a punishment. What are the punishments for anglers in poker? The EPT director called him out, but was the angler given any penalties at all? What did he have to lose from angling? And what disincentives are there for him to not angle?
In cash games, every well run poker room will warn an angleshooter a couple of times and eventually kick him out. First for the night, then for good. That's something nobody wants to have in their room because it's bad for business.

In shadier/illegal games, players might police things like that themselves. I mentioned that somebody might wait for the angle shooter in the parking lot, because that's something that has happend in the past. Nobody goes to the police to report being robbed of his winnings in an illegal card game.

FWIW, I don't think the angle here is a super bad one. But it's just one of the things that you shouldn't do, don't be THAT guy.

Last edited by madlex; 03-08-2017 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 03-08-2017, 10:00 PM   #7
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re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

Greatest angle of all time was performed recently by Phil Ivey at the Borgota blackjack. No mercy for the casino's imho who angle congress to shut down online poker rooms who angle by not having the money in the bank like FT, or inside jobs like UB. Poker's never been a clean sport, but shouldn't angle players. Better to think about the next hand.
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Old 03-10-2017, 12:17 PM   #8
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

I don't see anything wrong with thinking about this angle and what it means.

I don't even see anything that wrong with doing this, as it's not even clear what it means. It's an ambiguous behavior, so it's not like the person doing it is even giving themselves some easily defined advantage. This isn't really comparable to, say, someone who mis-announces their hand in the hopes their opponent will muck.

The general pattern, in my opinion, is that most weird/strange behaviors from players making big bets will be likely to be indicators of relaxation. If I'm in doubt about what to do, I tend to go with that read. Bluffers will tend to mostly be too nervous to do anything too creative or weird. Speaking generally.
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Old 03-11-2017, 02:51 AM   #9
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

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Originally Posted by madlex View Post
Do you also give credit to a great cheat or somebody who runs a successful con on you to steal your money?


In cash games, every well run poker room will warn an angleshooter a couple of times and eventually kick him out. First for the night, then for good. That's something nobody wants to have in their room because it's bad for business.

In shadier/illegal games, players might police things like that themselves. I mentioned that somebody might wait for the angle shooter in the parking lot, because that's something that has happend in the past. Nobody goes to the police to report being robbed of his winnings in an illegal card game.

FWIW, I don't think the angle here is a super bad one. But it's just one of the things that you shouldn't do, don't be THAT guy.
I think you are right in saying that it's not a super bad one, especially comparing to what that guy pretending to not speak English with his angle. But the problem is that the casino can't just ban this person even if he angles this way over and over again. He accepts the string bet ruling and there's not much you can do beyond that. There wasn't even any need to get the floor involved that time.

I don't think I can compare it to stealing. I mean the person didn't really break any rules, he made an illegal string bet, but accepted the ruling. I was more mad at myself for reading too much into his behaviour than focusing on the poker hand itself.

That's why I give him credit. I would never have shoved my bluff in that spot from a pure poker theory perspective, proly would've folded to be honest. But that angle got me to do something stupid. I was owned pretty hard and can only acknowledge it and move on.
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Old 03-11-2017, 03:00 AM   #10
WestNoob
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

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I don't see anything wrong with thinking about this angle and what it means.

I don't even see anything that wrong with doing this, as it's not even clear what it means. It's an ambiguous behavior, so it's not like the person doing it is even giving themselves some easily defined advantage. This isn't really comparable to, say, someone who mis-announces their hand in the hopes their opponent will muck.

The general pattern, in my opinion, is that most weird/strange behaviors from players making big bets will be likely to be indicators of relaxation. If I'm in doubt about what to do, I tend to go with that read. Bluffers will tend to mostly be too nervous to do anything too creative or weird. Speaking generally.
good point. If I were to incorporate this angle in my game it will be with the nuts against thinking players every time.

Also just as a side note, I've seen some reverse "putting on my jacket and saying it's time to go home" hollywooding after shoving all-in. From amatures it's always the nuts every time, but I've seen some seasoned players do the whole act with their bluffs to try to get good thinking players to fold.

Apparently there are lvls of angling and acting, who says live poker is easier than online..lol

Last edited by WestNoob; 03-11-2017 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 03-13-2017, 05:12 AM   #11
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

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Originally Posted by WestNoob View Post
good point. If I were to incorporate this angle in my game it will be with the nuts against thinking players every time.

Also just as a side note, I've seen some reverse "putting on my jacket and saying it's time to go home" hollywooding after shoving all-in. From amatures it's always the nuts every time, but I've seen some seasoned players do the whole act with their bluffs to try to get good thinking players to fold.

Apparently there are lvls of angling and acting, who says live poker is easier than online..lol
Gl incl. angles in ur game..
You are fantastic for poker, thank you.
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Old 03-13-2017, 10:37 PM   #12
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

WHY DID HIS STRING BET CAUSE YOU to bluff?


How is this an angle?
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Old 03-14-2017, 11:20 AM   #13
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

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WHY DID HIS STRING BET CAUSE YOU to bluff?


How is this an angle?
I think the OP was thinking the angle was this-Villain was weak, but wanted to appear strong by making a bet that he knew would be disallowed, allowing him to show strength without risking chips.

And to OP...don't incorporate angles into your game. Just don't do it. The marginal advantage you may gain on a specific hand is not worth the reputation you gain from being a scumbag.
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Old 03-15-2017, 05:59 AM   #14
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

If him string betting was an angle but you didn't know what to make of it (as stated), then it wasn't a very clever angle for him to shoot. It sounds like he honestly had a good hand and was just trying to put money in.

I wasn't there and maybe I am misreading, but it sounds more like you overthought something that didn't need to be overthought more than it sounds like it was an elaborate ruse to confound you that should result in discipline.

"angle shooting" is a term that gets thrown around a little loosely on the West Coast. I was an NYC player for a long time and the accusation was only thrown out in pretty serious situations. Since I moved to the west, it seems like every time I go to the card room some older guy is getting ornery about what he imagines to be some sort of manly dishonor. West coast guys are ready to call the floor over a guy folding out of turn sometimes. I really don't get it.
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:27 AM   #15
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

There is a wicked sister to this action as well when the Hero is OOP. The V will check out of Turn, making it look like they want a cheap street/showdown but is ready to call (or raise) any bet!

If you consider the V a knowledgeable reg then yes, it could be an angle or the player just got too excited and screwed up the move (which you really wouldn't expect from a reg.)

I think regardless of intent that it typically would be an above average hand.

In my most recent experience a V checked out of turn on a River board of KQT8K. I decided to seize the moment and bluff into him 3/4 pot 'for value' and was greeted by an insta-shove. I correctly folded my AA ... V then proudly shows AK like it's the nuts. Perhaps he thought it was, this hand, but it's hardly a hand deserving of this angle against that board! GL
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Old 03-20-2017, 04:51 AM   #16
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

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There is a wicked sister to this action as well when the Hero is OOP. The V will check out of Turn, making it look like they want a cheap street/showdown but is ready to call (or raise) any bet!

If you consider the V a knowledgeable reg then yes, it could be an angle or the player just got too excited and screwed up the move (which you really wouldn't expect from a reg.)

I think regardless of intent that it typically would be an above average hand.

In my most recent experience a V checked out of turn on a River board of KQT8K. I decided to seize the moment and bluff into him 3/4 pot 'for value' and was greeted by an insta-shove. I correctly folded my AA ... V then proudly shows AK like it's the nuts. Perhaps he thought it was, this hand, but it's hardly a hand deserving of this angle against that board! GL
I've seen the check out of turn one before, it's a bit nasty especially when used by unknowns.. at the lower stakes, sometimes people honestly check/bet out of turn.

I've been thinking a lot about using the "reverse angle", and I find it to be something I need to incorporate at times against regs or in higher stakes. I think they would help my game against better players. But first, let me clarify. When I say angle, I don't mean announcing nuts on the river with nothing and maybe get the villain to fold. Nor do I mean pretending to not speak english and verbalize all-in. The angles I'm thinking of are those three so far, and I personally don't consider them unethical to use. Plz feel free to disagree.

Angle 1: Putting on your jacket and saying it's time to go home or to get more chips.

Everyone who's played some live poker has seen this move before, mostly at lower stakes. And pretty much it's always the nuts. But why can't we pull this move with a bluff??

Angle 2: String bet as I mentioned in earlier post.

String bet is illegal according to the rules in all casinos I've ever played in. The punishment for such a move is that only the original bet came with the first motion is allowed to stand. I don't see how it's abusing the rules when we make an illegal bet and accept the ruling that it was against the rules and accept the punishment.

Angle 3: Announcing "call" out of position when villain is picking up chips on the river.

It is an angle someone pulled on me a long time ago, the gist of it is that when villain is picking up chips and getting rdy to bet the river, and you verbalize "call" before any chips are put in.

Where I play this action is not binding (I had a long conversation with the floor about it), but it might be considered binding else where.

My argument is that those angles would give you an edge against good players who normally have an edge on you. Good players tend to understand the game well and make good poker decisions overall. However, by pulling an angle, now you are making his decision not entirely a poker decision but rather he will think more about your angle more than the hand itself.

When your opponent is better than you, having him make his decision based on the angle is a lot of better than the alternative.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:33 AM   #17
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

Any 'consistent' use of these types of 'plays' will label you in a hurry!! If you play in a room of regs it wont take long. GL
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:12 PM   #18
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

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Originally Posted by WestNoob View Post
I've seen the check out of turn one before, it's a bit nasty especially when used by unknowns.. at the lower stakes, sometimes people honestly check/bet out of turn.

I've been thinking a lot about using the "reverse angle", and I find it to be something I need to incorporate at times against regs or in higher stakes. I think they would help my game against better players. But first, let me clarify. When I say angle, I don't mean announcing nuts on the river with nothing and maybe get the villain to fold. Nor do I mean pretending to not speak english and verbalize all-in. The angles I'm thinking of are those three so far, and I personally don't consider them unethical to use. Plz feel free to disagree.

Angle 1: Putting on your jacket and saying it's time to go home or to get more chips.

Everyone who's played some live poker has seen this move before, mostly at lower stakes. And pretty much it's always the nuts. But why can't we pull this move with a bluff??

Angle 2: String bet as I mentioned in earlier post.

String bet is illegal according to the rules in all casinos I've ever played in. The punishment for such a move is that only the original bet came with the first motion is allowed to stand. I don't see how it's abusing the rules when we make an illegal bet and accept the ruling that it was against the rules and accept the punishment.

Angle 3: Announcing "call" out of position when villain is picking up chips on the river.

It is an angle someone pulled on me a long time ago, the gist of it is that when villain is picking up chips and getting rdy to bet the river, and you verbalize "call" before any chips are put in.

Where I play this action is not binding (I had a long conversation with the floor about it), but it might be considered binding else where.

My argument is that those angles would give you an edge against good players who normally have an edge on you. Good players tend to understand the game well and make good poker decisions overall. However, by pulling an angle, now you are making his decision not entirely a poker decision but rather he will think more about your angle more than the hand itself.

When your opponent is better than you, having him make his decision based on the angle is a lot of better than the alternative.
'Angle 1' is not even remotely close to an angle.

Second, using angles usually only works on inferior players. Better players will see through the angle or just ignore it.

Third, the way that you are using 'angle' is basically using the rules to misrepresent your intention in order to disguise your hand strength. This can be done without angling.

Finally, if you intend to play poker for any length of time, play in a way that you can be proud of. Deliberately playing scummy to gain a slight perceived advantage is low. Have some pride.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:25 PM   #19
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

Just to summarize: he tried to bet more money than he sctuslly did, then argued with dealer that he should be able to bet more money so you shove air run into the nuts and think you got angled?
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:46 PM   #20
WestNoob
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Re: Great angle? Bettor w/ nuts does fake string bet

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Just to summarize: he tried to bet more money than he sctuslly did, then argued with dealer that he should be able to bet more money so you shove air run into the nuts and think you got angled?
This is why it can never be proven as an angle. Nobody can prove your intention in that spot as you could just be making an honest mistake. Which is why some people don't even consider it an angle unless I'm telling you that I'm making a string bet on purpose to confuse you.

And yes, I misread the situation for sure.
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