Sorry , maybe I am just too damn passive, but I don't like this situation. V Strange just seems very confident with his pre flop comment and a near pot sized bet, as does Cougar with the call. Others likely will call here , but I fold and let others take down this one. My investment is very small because of the checks by hero. I am now a spectator.

Well, we block aces, we block 7's, and don't block 2's. I don't see myself getting away from this hand, in any realistic setting.

I'd be willing to play for my stack here, and figure it is just as likely (or more likely) that opponents have AK/AQ or even A2 suited as likely that they have AA/77/22. Hell, Strange could have 10/J suited and taking a dang stab for all I know.

I'd raise to $125, and I'd be hoping for calls to be honest.

Since it's a thread here, I assume this hand broke bad, but we have top 2 on a dry board where 1-2 players can easily have worse hands. No way I'm not putting money in the middle. As the hand has played so far, tbh my concern is that we can't get the money in fast enough. Vs a cbet and a call, our overcall looks strong but could still be AJ+. If we c/r we might as well turn our cards over, since we'd never have less than two pair.

OR can have literally any piece of this board, from AA to 76s. Probably a big ace (or two), and that's great. Ditto caller: I know you gave a pretty specific read on what he does with big hands vs weak hands, but imo a read like that is way too...how shall I say...there's always at least a 20% fudge factor for someone deciding to play 87s or even 54s this way, even though you say they lead their weak hands.

My fear is someone has A2s or AK and we don't get all the money. If we just call the flop, OR is likely to check most turns, so if it got checked through, he and/or both of them are getting a free shot to make a better 2 pair. I suppose we can call here and hope ott OR fires again, because a c/r here, given our image, we may only get action from AK and sets. I mean, these guys aren't going to call a c/r with AQ, are they? If they will, bump it to 100, something they can call. But if they know to fold AQ, I don't know how much raising accomplishes.

Yeah, I'm in the reraise camp. Bad things can happen, of course, but we're ahead of most hands. In fact, for most hands raising and calling, Hero's hand is the monster under the bed.

So, I raise $75 more.

I encourage people not to game out the hand based on the knowledge that it is posted. I try to focus on hand where at least one decision is tough or in this case, trying to peer into villain's mind.

It is absolutely true that Hero has a well earned reputation as old man, coffee.(though Hero has opened up somewhat from his earliest days, he isn't likely to check raise vs Villain Strange without the goods.) If he is check raising, top two pair is the rock bottom of his range. Villain Strange isn't going to pay off the check raise very often but The Cougar might.

I wanted to bet, as the c/r is very strong and might fold out worse. As played, I'll go for a pot building c/r, maybe just to $75, expecting to get both to come along.

As mentioned, we may be at the bottom of the range we are repping with a big c/r. A smaller c/r may leave our range wider, or even see like we are betting for information (hate that btw).

After the c/r, assuming caller(s). We're headed towards firing the turn, possibly shoving depending on remaining stack sizes and pot.

*** On to the turn ***

Hero calls $25, three way action with $107 in the pot. Hero holds A 7

Turn is < A 7 2 > K

The Cougar checks. Action on Hero, bet or check? If betting, how much?

The hand was misplayed on the flop twice. Both checking the first time around and then just calling after letting Strange bet and getting a caller in the middle (I mean the whole point of the flop check had to be to check/raise) were abominations.

I'm not a mod here, god that seems like a thankless task, but in Home Games subforum, we generally don't talk to each other this way. Each subforum has its own style, I know LLSNL doesn't tolerate much and is a semi-heavily moderated forum, while BBV is a separate circle in Dante's Inferno. Here in Home Games we tend to have a much friendlier atmosphere.

I would have played it the same way you would've (at least postflop), but please keep the insults out of it. TYVM.

This is probably the worst card in the deck, with a Q being close behind. At this point I'm checking, and shrug-folding if OR bets again and Cougar calls, unless it's some silly small bet like 25 again. Then I shrug-call.

Ugh, that turn stinks. But we don't know there is an AK out there. The way the hand was played by hero, there could be a number of other hands that felt they should be in the hand.

I wouldn't often just call the, but that's what we've done. However, if we'd raised, I think an AK would have been likely to call, and now we'd have more of our chips in the middle. So in hindsight, maybe the call was ok.

I'm going to check here. Let's see what the button does. I've got a pretty wide calling range, depending on what happens next.

I would have liked to put in some more money on the flop. There aren't many cards that help our hand, and sooo many cards that may help others.

After flopping top 2, we are stuck wondering if anyone hit a better 2 pr, their set, or now has a straight draw. Against 2 opponents, I'll be cautious on what is barely more than a limped pot.

I'll check. What am I hoping for from V Strange? A tiny turn bet? That they hold AQ, QQ, JJ, TT? Do I feel like Cougar has the same range if they call?

* With AK here, I'm not feeling awful getting trapped/beat by a set. There are too many worse Ax hands that I'm ahead of to make the bets/calls right. With A7, I'm much less certain that they are the right calls.

So I initially figured I could call a $25 bet (1/4 PSB). Why? Because I might fill up, or the river might get checked around, or I might be ahead of both opponents. After typing it up, I now see how silly that sounds to me. TBH, I'm not sure what river card makes me feel best, and willing to ship it in. With that in mind, for home poker, I'll probably make that 1/4 PSB call.

If V Strange checks behind... then I can re-evaluate ranges on the river.

I wouldn't put much hope of a micro turn bet if Hero checks. Villain Strange might check behind or put in a "reasonable" bet, but a 1/4 pot bet isn't on the menu most nights.

Now he might be making a river bet sized that way but we are a long ways from Hero seeing the river.

No disrespect towards either DrStrange or the Hero was intended (I apologize if it seemed that way). Given that this is a strategy/PAHWM thread that DrStrange posted to presumably help his friend analyze his line/play better in the future, just glossing over the critical street in the hand would be a disservice to the Hero (assuming the Hero is reading the thread).

I wasn't offended by any post in this thread. I am not Hero and had a difficult time understanding what he was trying to accomplish several times in this hand. I appreciate the range of commentary in the thread.

I hope Hero isn't reading 2+2. Villain Strange learned a lot in this hand and prefer not to similarly educate Hero. Tuition at the school of poker shouldn't be free.

ok I'm glad we're all cool. I am one of 'those people' who finds some parts of 2+2 uninhabitable, and I'm pretty happy that Home Games is clean from the toxic atmostphere. I don't like calling things "abominations" and whatnot. I think we can all be critical of a play without getting personal.

For another thread at some point, maybe, but there are times at the casino when I essentially give up trying to figure out what V's are up to, since it's clear they don't know either. At my home game I try and remember tendencies but people are so bad that they end up being surprisingly balanced.

*** And now what? ***

Hero checks. Villain Strange bets $100 into a $107 pot. The Cougar folds. Now we are heads up.

Hero owes $100 to continue in the hand. Should he fold, call or raise? Should he consider any raise aside from all-in?

Hero holds A 7

The board at the moment is < A 7 2 > K

Hero has $318 left ( or $218 if he calls villain's bet ). Villain covers Hero.

Villain read - - Villain is Tagish, especially after the flop. Villain plays for stacks several times a session which is attractive to the gamblers in the crew. Villain doesn't bluff much, but you can't count on him to be "honest" when the pot gets big. (i.e. some villains will bluff only on early streets when the cost is low. Villain Strange has been seen to bluff [ occasionally ] for larger amounts.) Villain seems to over value one pair hands but that might be in reaction to table conditions rather than a structural fault.

Nope, not going to ship the $100, possibly drawing dead. Change the turn to K and maybe I can find a bad reason to continue.

Fold and play another hand.

So I guess what I do is take a gander at what range I put him on otf: AT-AK, AA 77 22 and occasional random crap like 54s/A9s/maybe A2s (only 2 combos anyway and idk if he raises any of this pre). He fires again ott, prob not bluffing into 2 people including an EP/MP caller who can easily have sets here, in fact we can too. He can't think we have AK/AQ/AJs/ATs, we should have raised all that pre, though Cougar can have some discounted combos of these hands. So what hands could he have that thinks are still ahead? AK six combos, AQ 8 combos, AJ 8 combos, though he'll slow down with some of this I'd guess, so let's give him 2 here. AA one combo, 77/22 6 total. 23 total combos, we're ahead of 10 and behind 13. Even if we have him going thinner with AJ, it's still break even or close enough. Or you think his bluff frequency is high enough to merit a call.

So that's a possible call, if this was the river. But it ain't, and I'm pretty sure he's gonna play closer to perfect in position than we will OOP. He's going to check behind AJ and any AT he was silly enough to bet ott, and maybe 2-6 of the 8 AQ depending on how thin he goes. He's going to fire all the hands that beat us (AK and sets). He's also going to fire any hand that was behind but now caught up, like he has AQ and a Q hits. Are we planning to call turn and fold the river? I'm not saying that's the worst, sometimes it's fine, but idk here. Even if it was the exact correct pot odds ott, we're going to make just enough mistakes otr to make a turn call -EV.

I can't speak to any bet sizing tells, that's one of those, 'you have to know the guy' things. If it leans you one way or the other, I can't argue. Any 'read' I have from 8000km away is BS.

The only way we can justify a call imo if if we think V is manic, suicidal, bluffy, or very spewy with any Ax TP hand. Folding 2p in a home game, I may end up going home wearing clown shoes, but here, I think I muck and if asked, say I had 87s and was hoping to spike.

Hero's check might show a lot of weakness and uncertainty, and villain could be, even somewhat desperately, trying to buy the pot. Or villain might have hero beat. This is one of those spots that are so tough to play right.

The king only helped if villain has AK or KK. That's a very narrow range. I'm not worried about the gutshot straight draw.

I would have preferred a smaller bet, but I'm going to be sticky here and call. I find it very hard to lay down what was top two when a scare card comes on the turn. But I don't want to raise. If I'm ahead, I might get villain to bluff off his stack. If I'm behind, why am I helping him get my stack?

I don't think a raise is a bad idea, either, but honestly, I don't feel great about this hand.

*** Results ***

Hero folds. Then for reasons I can't imagine, he shows his hand to the table. That is way out of character - Hero never, ever shows his cards.

I was dumbfounded at someone flopping top two pair and then taking a check/call, check/fold line followed by a proud tabling of the folded hand. The rest of the table perked up, laughed at Hero and no doubt mostly resolved to fire bluffs at Hero for the rest of the year.

Villain Strange held A Q. Cougar showed the fourth ace but not his side card.

For what it is worth, Strange wasn't putting another chip in the pot. If Hero takes any form of a check/raise or leads out on the river, then Strange is done with the hand.

And for the rest of the story - - - about two hours earlier, Strange made a button raise with A7o and ended up winning unimproved at showdown. Hero took offence at the lax standards noting that "no good player would raise a piece of crap like that". Thus the preflop comment by Hero about him having a better hand than Villain Strange.

Strange continues to insist to Hero that it was a good fold -=- DrStrange

I don't know if my play was the best overall, but it sounds like it was the best line to take against this villain. I read that you would fold to a check/raise. Does that mean you planned to bet if checked to?

Villain Strange knows Hero well. He still is Old Man, Coffee - just that he has gotten better at bum hunting the weaker players at the table.

Hero, when facing Villain Strange seems to be in the nut peddling business. I didn't fully appreciate how much this is the case until he showed his hand at the table. Even so, Hero isn't calling a third bet with a hand worse than AQ so betting the river is nothing more than a bluff hopping to fold out sets or AK. ( good luck with that. )

Hero has to make a decision early on to take a check/call line or come out firing, ideally preflop ( Of course it help to know you are going to flop top two pair before the hand starts. ) I can respect Hero's line if he decides to play a passive strategy and lets Villain Strange hang himself by check/calling it down.

I didn't have much respect for the check/call, check/fold line at the table, but I found sw_emigre's ranging to be a reasonable justification for Hero's turn fold given the stack depth.

I have no good words to say for Hero's decision to table his hand after folding. That is a lot of information to be giving up for no good reason.

Wow--thanks Strange. I occasionally take passive lines deliberately against aggressive villains and my lesson from this is that if you are going be a calling station you have to just swallow hard and call once you've made that choice.

Oh yea---never show. Ever.

A guy showed me a missed flush draw bluff on the river last night and that was probably more valuable than the $80 pot because I now know two things about that player:

1. He bluffs (I wasn't positive before)
2. He love soooted cards & flushes