I've posted a few times about this league, but we just finished this year's, so what's one more?

We've run a WSOP league for two years now. The second year was a vast improvement over the first, and I've had a lot of conversations with people about what kept them playing, even if they didn't have a shot at winning the league. Here now, in a thinly-veiled brag post, is what I feel drew people in. Rather than repeatedly write "people told me that they felt..." I'm stating my conclusions as "fact". Adapt for your own game as you see fit.


League Structure

15 tournaments, using the same stacks and blinds as the WSOP. A portion of every buyin is reserved for the league, and we buy multiple seats. The best 10/15 tournaments work towards points, and the leaders win seats. One seat is reserved for the winner of a freeroll, the starting chips for which are based on tournament participation (not performance). This year, we raised enough for six WSOP seats.


Winning a Seat: The Point System

A key is keeping it competitive; taking the best 10/15 scores works well. After every game, I send out reports not only of running totals, but of the best 67% of games played so far, to help illustrate that only a couple of good finishes can make a big difference. This past year, for the final two games, sixteen people had a chance to win on points; for the final game, while three were locked up, it was still a battle for two more between six people.

I don't want to weigh too heavily towards those who win tournaments with the largest attendance, but I still want some sort of bonus for winning against a larger field. For winning the tournament you receive the same points regardless of attendance, but the rest scale down linearly to zero. For cashing you receive points based on the money received. Completely arbitrarily, I feel the cash bonus for winning first shouldn't be more than about 1/3 of the straight points, and I first place cash averages around $500. Therefore, first place is 150 points and cash prize is 10% in points (so $500 is 50 points).

It worked very well this past year, as you can see from the chart of the top 16 (with the math). Competitive 'til the end, with several late-league rallies, and a dark horse winning one of the seats. I kept this chart updated with both total scores and best 67% throughout the league (to illustrate how one win was a huge boost for anybody), but once we passed twelve games, running it as "ten best" made more sense. Those at the top are the best players in the league, but it was still anybody's game to win.

The Freeroll: Bonus Chips for League Participation

One WSOP seat is reserved as top prize in a freeroll shootout tournament. Chips for the freeroll are based on league participation, at an accelerated rate. This is a significant draw for people, especially late in the league as it becomes more "real". Based on this past year, I've developed the following system for next year:

The fifteen games are split into three waves of five. For the first wave, every game played is 500 freeroll chips, plus 500 for playing all five in the wave. Second wave, 1000 each. Third wave, 1500 each. Additionally, any five games is a 1000 chip bonus, any ten games is a 3000 (total) chip bonus, and all fifteen games is a 10k (total) chip bonus. There's an additional 2000 bonus for playing the final game.

For the early games, retention isn't a problem, because everybody has a shot. In the middle wave, as front-runners start to emerge, the middle players need incentive to keep going. We also gain players as the league goes on, and this helps people not feel they're too far behind from those who started at the beginning. Late in the league those who simply can't win on points need a big incentive to continue, especially the final game when it's clear who can and can't win. Additionally, this helps recruit new players for the last few games, as the chip bonus gives a reasonable freeroll starting stack.

The freeroll is a shootout in two waves, each lasting about six hours. This past year we had a voluntary $20 last-longer to give some sort of prize pool, but other ideas are being kicked around for next year. One is a $40 add-on for 5000 chips, able to be used once at any time in the first two hours. This will encourage those entering the league late, as this can pad the starting stack, but big stacks may not like it. Still some details to work out.


Food & Drink: Subtly +EV

Many people feel BOYB and bring or order your own food is good enough, but I strongly disagree. Most people probably won't tell you that having food and drink provided is a reason for attending the game, but it can certainly be a reason not to attend. At a recent cash game I had someone take the train across a body of water to attend the game, show up and see there wasn't food, go to a restaurant half a mile away, and never return.

People don't want to think or plan, they want to show up and be. At the end of a stressful work day, people want to unwind and relax. Grabbing dinner and buying drinks is simply more steps between them and the game, more potential for distraction. Additionally, eating as a group is a bonding, communal activity, which adds to the "fun" factor, the key ingredient for player retention. Also, when it's there and available, people drink more, which helps rebuys (and social lubrication).

I provide beer (fresh in a kegerator), liquor, and soda, with pizza and garlic bread delivered at the first break, an hour into the game. Often people will bring additional snacks, but that's always a bonus. Since I can't afford this for 25 people every week, I ask for a $10 donation to the house beer fund, which almost everybody is more than happy to pay. For the freeroll, we held it at a catering company's back patio, with food and drink all day and night, with a $20 player contribution.

Not only do people not have to think about it, the fact that it's there attracts more people, which makes a better game for everybody to enjoy for more time. As there is value in buying in bulk, individual dollars go further. Everybody wins.

Immediate Tournament Value

Someone who's longer odds to win the league needs incentive to push through, and I also need to attract the occasional player. A good tournament value attracts people who care not at all about the WSOP, and I achieve that with an accessible price point and a wide payout field. It's a fun night of poker and a lot of people get money back, so the occasional player doesn't feel like the buyin is simply padding the pockets of the hard-core players.

How big you can go depends on your crowd, but for us, $60 is an accessible buy-in point, with one $40 rebuy. $15 is taken from each for the league fund, the rest for the tournament. We pay 30% of the field, with the bottom few getting not much more than money back, and first place receiving 30% of the post-league-deduction prize pool, which is usually around $500 for 25 players. Not huge, but still a worthwhile payday.

Hard-core players prefer a tight payout structure, but remember that we're trying to attract more than hard-core players. If you're an average player and attend three games, chances are you're going to cash at least one of them, and intermittent reinforcement will keep you coming back. It also helps create the feel that we're working together to raise funds for the group and earn points, rather than all fighting each other for money, which keeps it friendly and keeps people coming back.

In addition, we have a long pace for the blinds, with most people lasting between 3-5 hours, and the final table finishing 7 hours after start time. The pace isn't rushed, so you feel like you earn your points, rather than getting lucky in turbo bingo.


Rebuys: A Safety Net and Seat Filler

This is a mildly controversial point, for a couple of reasons. First, the WSOP doesn't have rebuys in our events, and we're ostensibly "training", so why allow it? Also, many people don't like the idea that you have to eliminate someone more than once. However, the benefit gained makes this a worthwhile compromise.

Our first year we had a single $100 buyin. We took $50 for the league and awarded cash to the top three. Hardly anybody played. Not only did this not raise much money, but it meant we all played the same people all the time, and mostly short-handed. When the winners got to the WSOP, suddenly we were at full tables, and unprepared.

Now we have a $60 buyin plus a $40 rebuy. $60+40 is a lot easier to digest than $100 straight: never underestimate the story of the boiling frog. But this also means people know they wouldn't show up, plop down a C-note, get a rough beat on the first hand, and go home. Most importantly, it keeps the tables full longer, giving everybody more practice and experience. Combined with the wider payouts, this structure attracts more people, meaning we can take less out of the prize pool for the league fund.

A Piece of the Pie: Kickback Shares

The WSOP seats are a warped combination of a prize and a collective backing system. Those who play the WSOP retain 65% of winnings, with the rest spread among the league. Shares are based on league participation, at an exponential rate. My formula is: x * (x + x/10) with 'x' as the number of tournaments played, but some revisions have been suggested. It's under review.

This encourages people to play, as even one game is a piece of a potential jackpot, but rewards those who contributed the most time and money, and put more of their own money at risk. It's also an incentive to play 'just one more', similar to the freeroll chips. In reality most people's shares won't amount to much unless there's a final table cash, but that point should be downplayed.


Organization & Maintenance

People like a good-paced, clean, smooth-running game. I'm a bit of a hard-ass on rules and procedures, but I'm also lenient to new players. The point is to learn the same "language" of play so that the game can run smoothly, not trap or punish people. It's taken a long time, but I have trained people how to shuffle and deal more easily, and our procedures are intended to be the most efficient and easiest to maintain.

It's also a lot of little things, like setting up stacks ahead of time, keeping chips in racks so they're easy to distribute and count, easy and fast buyins and seating, reliable tourney result tracking, cleaning up here and there as the night goes on, attending to player needs, spading decks and checking cards for marks before every game, distributing empty racks around the room for table changes, playing (mostly) accessible music at a reasonable volume, etc.


Player Selection

I don't want any random person walking in off the street, but one must always be pulling in new players to replace those who wander away. The best way to have a game filled with people you like is to ask those you like to invite more people. The #1 rule of the game is "No A-holes". I've kicked several out simply because they were unwilling to respect the game. I seek out and play in a lot of other home games. I don't go in with a recruitment routine, but I do get a feel for players, and after a few times playing with them I have a good idea of who would work in the game. Most people play a few times and never again, but that one person who stays is loyal to the end, and will often bring several others.


Psychology & Aggressive Marketing

Nothing draws a crowd like a crowd.

I use evites for tournaments because it lets people see that others want to play, and it holds people accountable in front of a group. I also limit the number of seats. Rather than open up another table to have them all play short, I have an alternate list. All it takes is one time of someone waiting around an hour for a seat for that person to show up early every time after. Additionally, people respond more to "only three seats left!" than "please come help us get a table going" (tho' I've used both, depending on the situation).

I send out weekly post-game reports, with exciting hands, final table details, shoutouts, news on upcoming games, etc. I get mocked a bit for my wordiness, but more than that I get people who thank me for keeping them updated, and it encourages attendance at the next game, makes us more of a family. I also contact individually those who haven't played in a while, try to get them back.

Also, I do my best to help people feel welcome at the game (and sadly, my best ain't all that great, but I'm working on it). I thank folks for playing, I tend to their needs, I listen to their comments and suggestions, I deal with occasional arguments, etc. Without people, there's no game.

Oh, and I gave out hats to the winners:



...

So that's it. With the league over and no next tournament to plan, I have a poker-filled void to fill, and you all get to read about it.

It may have been asked before. Question about your points. You said you took the players best 10/15, what about if the player played 12, is it 8/12 or 10/12?

And to clarify (its late here), points are 10% of the cash, and you pay out 30% of the field. Is that bonus points, or you only get points by cashing.
A win out of a 26 man game gets alot more points than a win from a 16 point game.

Best ten games. If you only play ten, you better hope they're good.

Base points is (# of players + 1 - your finish) * (150 / # of players). Bonus points is (cash * 10%). Check out the chart, it might help.

A win of a 26 person game was worth 200 (varied based on # of rebuys), while a win of the lowest game, 17 players, was 190. Considering for a while some of the contenders were separated by only a few points (at one time less than a point), ten was somewhat significant, but it wasn't a disincentive not to play the smaller games (which helped keep them not small).

What state are you in - I thought you were in the Calif, Bay Area, but I'm not sure why I think that.

At any rate -

What are the local gambling commission laws there?

In WA all money in the form of buy-ins and what not need to be returned to the players that night -- ie we can't hold money in a prize fund for a later date.

Have you run into that, or is it a non-issue, or is it an issue, but you accept it and play anyway?

Sarge

We play in an undisclosed offshore location.

How loud are complaints about the 10k freeroll bonus for all games played? I love the wave idea for tons of reasons, but the 10k bonus seems excessive to me....

I started to play in a league like this in 2008. It got shutdown due to disputes over rules, setup and what not. Many discussions about how to handle the money took place. There was a plan to have a trust created due to legal issues with implying that the winner was forced to travel and play in the Main Event. I think people made things WAY too complicated.

The real "kicker" was that 100% of the winnings were to be divided up among the group based on performance/participation. I was of the opinion that the winner should get 50% of their winnings and the rest should be split among the group. Had the group continued playing, I would have likely dropped out since this stipulation literally made me vomit.

I may need to do some adjusting, such as bumping up the "last game bonus" and knocking down the "fifteen game bonus", but if you look at it, it's not really 10k bonus. Based on the normal progression, where 5 games is 1k, and 10 games is 2k more (for 3k total), 15 games would be 3k more (for 6k total). So it's really only a 4k bonus over and above the normal progression.

This past year I used a different system (made it up as I went along), and the result was that all fifteen games got 25k chips, and the next biggest stack was 18k. Nobody complained at all.


That's a shame. My role is as a benevolent dictator. I'm very open to ideas and suggestions and criticism, but, hey, it's my game. If you don't like it and don't feel like making suggestions, don't play.

Something I forgot to mention was seating in the freeroll.

First off, if you win a seat on points, you can't play the freeroll.

In order to keep tables balanced, and to help those who played all the games but didn't win a seat, those with the most freeroll chips pick first. If there are six shootout tables, the top six choose first table, then seat on the table. Once a table is selected in a round, it's removed for that round. Then the next six pick. For the last wave of players, I figure out how many chips are on each table and seat them accordingly.

Question about the buyin. Did $15 of $60 go to the fund and $15 of any rebuys?
Or was it just $15 to the fund.

Ignore that. I just saw on the first link that $15 from $60 and $15 of the $40

I'm bumping this, since it's WSOP time and people may be gearing up some leagues.

Just a suggestion for this. Have everyone put up a $25 bounty on his self. Then even players finishing lower have a chance to pick a few off.


Also, I wish you were in the TampaBay area as this sounds awesome.

Dammit, I TOLD you, I'm NOT paying you any freakin' royalties, no matter WHAT the quality of the posts are!

And it moves!

Now, is it a boat? A plane? A flatbed truck? An RV?


Only The Shadow knows.....

muhAHAHAHAHA!!!

Oh, update on our last league!

Those of us who won on points busted throughout the first day.

The woman who won the freeroll finished late in the second day, final 6 tables, 59th. Her cash was $7500. Of that, $2000 went to the league (post-taxes). So at least we profited on her seat!

We've been in limbo this summer, hopefully to start up again soon. Most people have gotten their payouts, but it remains to be seen if how little it was will be a deterrent, or an incentive to do better next year. I'm hoping to get the league up and running again by October.

Thanks folks!

The bounty idea is a good one. We have to work in a provision of what happens to money that doesn't buy a seat. The first year we were a few hundred shy, so the bubble kicked in and took it. Last year we were only $20 or shy, so it was a wash. What if we're $300 over? $600 shy? If a few hundred over, I say it goes to the freeroll. And I may aim for that to be a $1000 seat anyway.

Very good information !

I have started a small league this summer and I will incorporate some of your ideas for next season.

I like the idea of using the 10 best results to determine the positions. Not having to play all the trnys will remove some presure on the players.

I also like the idea of supplying food and drinks for a fix price to all attendies. As you mentioned, it should bring the group closer and improve attendence. It will certainly be less work for me !

Wait, so you guys take part of winnings the players make at the WSOP divide in the league? Whats the system for this? I must have missed this somewhere!

It's a complex procedure involving lasers.

Shares are based on participation, at an exponential rate.

This is from memory, but I believe the formula is something like: x * (1 + x/10), where x is the number of tourneys played. However, I may go to 1 share for 1 tourney next year, as the freeroll chips proved to be more of a draw. We'll talk it over.

Great thread PFF.

I'd love to get something like this up and running in my area and some of the ideas in this thread are incredible.

pfapfap I really appreciate your input. Sounds like you have the knowledge and experience we were looking for....could you go into some detail as to how you were able to raise $10,000 (Main Event) from 15 or so tourneys ? Are you awarding seats to the main event or some of the smaller buy ins at the WSOP ? Does your league offer any expense money and Hotel ?
Again, thank you for taking the time to post and help us out