I play in a regular home game with friends. The buy in is up to $40 with .25/.50 blinds. A situation came up last night that caused a huge argument and I'm curious as to what others think. So, an hour into play one player was already in for $70 having run 88 into TT to lose his first 40 and losing the next 30 to a flush on the river while holding QQs. Just as the next hand was about to start and that player had bought in for another 40, someone realized that no one had checked the two brand new decks we started with for Jokers as one was discovered while shuffling. A stupid mistake on all our parts but especially the two players that physically opened the packages and began shuffling. There was only one Joker in each deck thankfully but the addition on one extra card would in fact change the order of the cards themselves. However, no one will ever know if it would have changed the action that had already taken place, as my group tends to be pretty loose and aggressive at home games. So, obviously the player that was down wanted to start over with our original buy-ins and the two players that were up did not agree, turning friends into enemies, name calling ensued. After half an hour of arguing it came down to a coin flip, start over or play on. Well it came up play on and we did. But the argument caused one of the winning players to leave, which was also detrimental to the game because it chased off a Super LAGtard with a bunch of money.

Congratulations on creating a first post with a topic I have never seen. Seriously.

Random is random. It is pretty desperate to try to use a loose joker in the deck to dial back the entire night's game.

So no freaking way does that fly.

Did the presence of the jokers affect the way the cards came out? Sure, but a slightly different shuffle or a butterfly flapping its wings in Japan might have the same effect.

As eneely said, random is random. Good that you fixed the problem once it was found, but the previous hands stand - action offered and action accepted.

This is what I do as a weekly home game host. Day before friday game. I choose two decks from the 8 or 10 I have. I go thru each suit and put them in sequence and double check it. I do a cursory check of the cards for marks. I put them in a copag box and they are ready for friday.

I can't imagine someone wanting to " start over" due to some supersitious BS about the order of cards. Yeah sure man, and 5s are hot tonight too! Sorry it ****ed up your game and maybe lose a player or two over it. You should/hope to have been able to laugh it off and play on. Check the decks a little better next time! Better luck!

We'll great, I hope it generates quite the discussion! Because, yes eneely, the losing player was arguing, to the BITTER end, that had it not been for the extra card both the 88 v TT and the flush coming on the river would have not happened. AND, his odds and outs calculations were also subsequently affected. I was down 10 bucks and was trying to be objective and argue both sides. I was mostly sad to see two friends fighting, nearly coming to blows, over 70 bucks. I just wonder what would happen in a casino environment if say it was discovered that there were two 6h in the deck or a card missing or something similar. Would they make people give their money back? And has it ever happened?

I'm fairly certain that all previous hands would stand as played. If the jokers were discovered during a hand, I'd expect a floor to kill that hand only and return all bets to players (and that's what I'd do at home). But once a hand is done, it's done.

Right. I think once the first card of the next hand is dealt, the previous hand is locked in. One of our rules nerds can confirm or correct that statement.

Robert's Rules of Poker (for home/private games) addresses this in the Irregularities section:

As for changing the order, if the joker wasn't in somebody's hand or on the board, chances are that it was in the stub in which case it wouldn't have affected the order of the cards coming off the deck. Only if it had been one of the three burn cards would it have affected the board, but that's irrelevant given the rule.

Obviously there are advantages to knowing the usual rules covering things like this, but not everybody has memorized RROP in full. I have a hard copy at home for the games that I host, and a copy on my phone for away games.

I really don't like leaving this to a coin flip. Obviously the coin was familiar with RROP.

Play on, and welcome to the forum.

"Scrap of Paper"... even my group of guys knows that phrase now.

There is no way that the game should have been reset. Perhaps he'd be stuck even deeper if the Jokers weren't in there.

Yes, if a Joker was burned, the order of cards would be different... but still random.

+1 to RROP coins

Oops, scrap of paper.

Thanks abby, looks like it's time for me to reread RROP.

I do the same thing, an hour or two before cards-flying time. When the game is about to start, I spread each suited deck face-up and examine it in front of everyone. There should never be a question that you started with proper decks of cards.

Ahh, but what would have happened? We don't know. Hell, the outcome without the jokers may have resulted in even more extreme action, or none, or anything in between. With or without the joker, it's still an equally randomly generated outcome.

(Robert's Rules of Poker cited at bottom to back all of this up.)

No they weren't. When a joker comes on the board in a non-joker game, it is to be treated as a worthless scrap of paper. When it comes as a hole card, it is replaced with the burn card, same as if it were a playable card exposed in the deal. If you act while it is still in your hand, your hand is fouled (dead).

Either way, it does not count toward odds calculations because it does not count toward anything; it either is treated as debris, kills your hand, or is used to replace an unknown card. If one of the dealer's eyelashes were to get stuck to a card while he's shuffling, it would have about as much effect as the joker. The only way it might affect your decisions would be if you were thinking of playing a hand blind.

You got lucky if you ask me. This was a very cheap lesson that could have gotten way out of hand. Hell, there was a 50% chance that it was going to end with legitimate winners getting robbed of their winnings, and that would not have gone well.

Who is the host in this game? Is there even a host?

I believe that finding two cards of the same rank and suit is one of the few times a casino will declare a fouled deck and "roll back" the action for that hand. I believe. B&M probably has a thread or two about it. But if there's just a joker? Scrap of paper, unless it's your hole card and you act on it. Then it kills your hand. But they're never going to try to roll back previous hands over it.

If my impression of the general sentiment of B&M is a sufficient source, the next hand is considered to have begun (and thus all previous hands are considered settled) upon the first riffle of the deck.

And yes, once a hand is done, it's done. I can't imagine what it would take for a cardroom to even consider undoing previous hands. Just the idea of it is a Pandora's Box.

Me either. The whole problem makes me cringe a little, but I nearly jumped out of my seat and cursed the gawds when I read the coin-flip part.

I don't blame the player who left after that. I would leave too, and politely explain why I no longer want to be invited.

It's a LOT more destructive to have two of the same card in a deck than to have a joker. Thus a joker is a scrap of paper, but a duplicate card fouls the deck (and kills the current hand).

Good catch - the rest of us were glossing over this, and it's an important distinction.

also, once a hand is over, it's done. There is no going back to "woulda/coulda/shoulda".


RRoP, house policies:
this is not ironclad (see rules 6 and 7), but the exceptions are more like someone misread the hands and the dealer pushed the pot to the wrong player. In any casino, an extra card only impacts the hand in play, not any previous hands.

Yup. That actually changes odds calculations and other material factors because the extra 6 continues playing as a normal card. You could have a small edge just by knowing about it while others don't.

The way casinos would handle this is a pretty good indicator of how seriously insane it is to consider rolling back any settled hands, never mind a whole session. Even if you know for a fact that you have played several hands with two 6 in the deck, it is inappropriate to undo anything but the current hand in play, and even that is an extreme measure.

this is correct. once a deal (hand) starts, it WILL be played out. this comes into effect once two players have acted on their hands.

The two (2) exceptions I'm aware of are 1) a duplicate card of the same rank and suit is discovered in the deck; or 2) a card with a different color back appears during the hand. The potential for 2 identical cards changes the odds and possibilities enough that the hand is fubar. return all bets and play it over from the beginning. Aside from those two events (and they should be damn rare, or you're doing something very wrong), the show will go on.

RRoP, irregularities:

Let's say there are 6 players playing. You have been playing for an hour. Let's say there have been 15 hands total.
Let's say there is an average of 4 community cards seen per hand.
That's 16 seen cards per hand. 37 unseen cards.
37/53 is about 70% chance that nobody would see the joker in any given hand.
In 15 hands, there is about a .004 chance that the joker wouldn't be on the board or in someone's hand at least once.
That's a 1 in 250 chance.

That begs the question...who discovered the joker in the deck and might it be someone who had a vested interest in trying to undo the hands?

Did math quick, sorry for any mistakes.

It's a given that it wasn't seen on the board, so it's incorrect to include board cards as part of your calculations. The question is how often it wouldn't be seen among the hole cards, starting from the condition that it was not seen on the board, which we know for a fact.

So, exclude the board cards like you would with exposed cards. The probability that no joker would appear among the hole cards, using all of your assumptions, should be:

37/49 ≈ 77.51% chance joker is not a hole card for one hand
(37/49)^15 ≈ 1.48% chance joker is not a hole card for 15 hands; a little better than a 67:1 shot

This calculation varies quite a bit with the number of hands, though, so a loose estimate for that figure could give you a wildly inaccurate probability.

The math aside, from OP's description of his behavior, I wouldn't be surprised if the stuck player might have seen the joker and let it ride as a sort of backup freeroll ticket. The fact that he'd try to get his losses undone at all tells me I shouldn't put it past him, ethically.

But I don't think we stand to learn anything about that by poring over the details. Unlikely though it may be, it's not astronomically so, and knowing who first called out the joker in the deck doesn't really tell us much.

As others have said, the coin flip part made me sick to my stomach a little. That was a terrible decision just because some player was whining about his beats. Thankfully, the coin came out correct, but that would have left a very sour taste in my mouth regarding this game, so I can see why someone left. Stand your ground against whining players better than this in the future, please.

10:1 says this guy would have been arguing the other way if he was up.

As for the coin flip, are you joking? Someone needs to be in charge and make a decision and stand by it, whether it is right or wrong. You can always learn the proper way later and address the issue next time. But the bottom line is once a decision is made by the person in charge, the arguing needs to end and play continues.

Yep. I'd much rather have a host make the wrong decision and stand by it than flip a coin.

I had the same thought.

That's a sucker bet at 10:1, if you ask me. More like 100:1 would be appropriate.

I asked what I think is a very pertinent question in an earlier post: Who is the host of this game? Additionally, if there is a host, to what extent does he maintain control over the game?

I feel like OP's issue would seldom come up except in a game where there is no host, or a hands-off type of host who tries to run everything democratically. It all goes smoothly until no agreement can be reached on a problem, which makes it a big problem even if it shouldn't be (like improper jokers). Then it turns into an unmitigated disaster with, for example, a coin flip deciding the results of an entire session.

If you're going to play in a hostless or min-hosted game, at least get the group to adopt a comprehensive set of rules like RRoP. That way, you have a neutral moderator ready to handle any disputes, and no one can claim unfairness. The rules are known and available for everyone to see, rather than voted or shouted into existence mid-game by biased parties.

I am the host at my game, and therefore those rare rules and situations do come down to me in the end. However, I don't feel that I understand everything better than all the rest of the crew. So I make a serious effort to get opinions and feedback from the others first before a ruling ( not that this happens often). I do this for both "diplomacy" and to make sure I have my views on a situation clear in my mind before deciding an issue. .....This letting an argument get out of control over this obvious a BS matter is very weak..... coin flipping such an argument is even weaker...... there can not be a responsible party in charge here to let this kind of goofy event grow into such a blow up. I don't reccomend a KITN very often, but maybe one is due to whoever is supposed to be hosting.

+100 for having a host/captain/floor to make final decisions.