(Raked) Club Game Containment Thread - Page 9 - Home Poker Games

DrStrangePork · 01-06-2012, 05:58 PM

I run a raked 1/2 game three times a week, and I'm doing pretty good, usually have a full table during the week and two tables on Saturday nights. The games are in my house which is set back from the street, plenty of parking, clean room, security cameras, a casino-quality main table (cost me $1,600), professional dealers... the whole nine yards. Most of players buy-in for between $100-200. Another guy next town over runs games on all the same nights (because he's personally attacking my games) in a gross, dirty warehouse with fruit flies and no bathroom. He once got into a fist-fight with his dealer right in front of everybody. He has twice in the last six months given out IOU's to players cashing out, because he put so many players in on credit that he didn't have the cash to pay out players cashing out. Finally, he's been arrested for sexually molesting his 4.5-year-old daughter and wears a security bracelet on his ankle as part of his arraignment.

And yet, he runs 1-2 tables a night, just like me. And his players come to the table with $1,000+ in their pockets, whereas my players often come with one buy-in. My table regularly has roughly $2-3K in play, whereas he regularly has $5K+. My question is how do I get players with $1,000+ pockets to my game when they are fine playing with this dirtbag?

**eneely** · 01-06-2012, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrStrangePork

I run a raked 1/2 game three times a week, and I'm doing pretty good, usually have a full table during the week and two tables on Saturday nights. The games are in my house which is set back from the street, plenty of parking, clean room, security cameras, a casino-quality main table (cost me $1,600), professional dealers... the whole nine yards. Most of players buy-in for between $100-200. Another guy next town over runs games on all the same nights (because he's personally attacking my games) in a gross, dirty warehouse with fruit flies and no bathroom. He once got into a fist-fight with his dealer right in front of everybody. He has twice in the last six months given out IOU's to players cashing out, because he put so many players in on credit that he didn't have the cash to pay out players cashing out. Finally, he's been arrested for sexually molesting his 4.5-year-old daughter and wears a security bracelet on his ankle as part of his arraignment.

And yet, he runs 1-2 tables a night, just like me. And his players come to the table with $1,000+ in their pockets, whereas my players often come with one buy-in. My table regularly has roughly $2-3K in play, whereas he regularly has $5K+. My question is how do I get players with $1,000+ pockets to my game when they are fine playing with this dirtbag?

I moved this to the club thread.

Interesting topic. Why do you think people prefer his game? It sounds really sketchy, yet he is pulling in the higher rollers.

avaholic · 01-06-2012, 06:20 PM

Is it really that hard to figure out? Money follows money.

If your players are bringing $200 to a 1/2 game, your game is going to be pretty unbeatable. The house/dealer/game girl (if you have one) are going to eat up anyone's ability to profit.

Also, there is no need to trash talk the other game, IMO. If the guy truly is a douche bag than eventually I'm sure that will work itself out. My guess is that you are making the other game out to be worse than it is and are jealous you can't compete.

If you personally know a couple players with bigger bankrolls that play at the other game, do something to invite them other. There are numerous things, but offer a personal invitation with a $100 credit or something for their first time. If they see your environment is actually better and you aren't clueless about providing a good product they will help recruit others.

DrStrangePork · 01-06-2012, 07:41 PM

I never said I'm not competing. In fact, I'm actually doing better than him. I've come to rely on the 1-3 people who will leave his games when they break early and come to my game after midnight. We joke about it. And no, I'm not exaggerating on his ****ty place. It was previously leased by a cabinet maker, so you can imagine the saw dust which has never been cleaned. People who go to both games still complain about the flies (I haven't been there since the summer). The dealer he got into the fight with now deals for me, and the dent in the wall that he made when he threw my dealer into it is still there.

I know all about putting out a quality product. My place is clean, safe and secure, and I have a large, loyal set of players which grows more every week. My only complaint is that the players I am attracting are the type to make their $200-300 last as long as they can, and the players he's attracting are willing to go much deeper into the game. Lots of my players, if they have two bad nights, they're done for the month. He's got guys who will drop 2 grand in a night and be back the next week. Even if the answer is as simple as "money follows money," how do I get the money on the table to attract the money? At least, without going broke myself or handing out IOU's like he does. Because once I do that, I can name 10+ people off the top of my head who will never come to my game again.

**eneely** · 01-06-2012, 07:52 PM

You are asking a question I don't think we can answer. A worse game has the players you want. Why don't they come to your game? I'm not sure we would know that. It must be something. Can you think of some reasons?

DrStrangePork · 01-06-2012, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eneely

Interesting topic. Why do you think people prefer his game? It sounds really sketchy, yet he is pulling in the higher rollers.

I honestly have no idea. Many of the regulars I met through him when I started playing a couple of years ago play at my place and want nothing to him, while a few others have a strange loyalty to him. He's also a bookie, so a few of his loyals are trying to gamble their way back to repaying their book debts to him. Not much I can do about that.

I have fantasized about pulling some all-out assault on his game, like offering bonuses to his players to come to my game, but I am honestly concerned that he would put a price on my head or send someone to rob my game or call the police on me. Those fears may be unrealistic, but I know him well enough to know to not put anything past him. He is truly a shady character. He learned how to play poker while serving time in jail for dealing crack in the '90's (or so he claims), so I can only imagine what connections he may have. I cannot afford to do anything shady myself (other than host a game). My kids live with me part-time, and quite frankly, I'm a stand-up guy, and I have no desire to change who I am or what my reputation is.

I know this all sounds crazy, but believe me the reality is even crazier. I and quite a few of my players who know him cannot fathom any reason why people would go there, hence my frustration. When we ask those people who do play both games why they go there, all we ever get is "I like it there" or "Oh, I think he's innocent" (or the child rape charges). For me anyway, the reason I don't ask further is because we keep getting the same canned answers which makes me think this guy is coaching people on what to say to me. I know for a fact two guys report back to him on how my games go every week which I couldn't care less about assuming I continue to run as well as I've been running lately.

dugthefish · 01-07-2012, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrStrangePork

I have fantasized about pulling some all-out assault on his game, like offering bonuses to his players to come to my game, but I am honestly concerned that he would put a price on my head or send someone to rob my game or call the police on me. Those fears may be unrealistic, but I know him well enough to know to not put anything past him. He is truly a shady character. He learned how to play poker while serving time in jail for dealing crack in the '90's (or so he claims), so I can only imagine what connections he may have. I cannot afford to do anything shady myself (other than host a game). My kids live with me part-time, and quite frankly, I'm a stand-up guy, and I have no desire to change who I am or what my reputation is.

If you're honestly that concerned, I would stop ****ing with this guy. Run your game, let him run his. If you consistantly put forth a better product, you will win in the long run. It's not worth it dealing with flashy criminal types. If they think they have lost face, they tend to escalate things.

Not that it's any of my business, but you might want to reconsider where you run your game. I imagine that a family court judge would have no problem whatsoever taking your kids away if you got busted running an underground card club, whether they were home or not.

DrStrangePork · 01-07-2012, 03:48 AM

Well, I haven't ****ed with him at all. In front of most players, I don't even recognize his existence, and I don't say anything to discourage people from going to his game. I figure people have to wisen up eventually. But his game continues to grow and with deep pocket players.

And I am in the process of looking for space to lease to move the game, for many reasons.

**eneely** · 01-07-2012, 09:21 AM

I would NEVER run a raked game out of my home. Getting an apartment, with good security, is your first priority. Much more important than anything else in this thread.

I suspect that the things which make his game more successful are the things you cannot recognize. So you can't include them here. So we can't determine what they are.

Basically, you are asking us to spot things from your description that you cannot spot in person. And your description includes (of course) your perception of things. Pretty tall order.

Is the other game more "fun" for example? If so, why? I wonder if your players are willing to be honest with you what the differences are between the two games.

I wonder if there are any underground cardroom consultants? New career opportunity.

DrStrangePork · 01-07-2012, 10:33 AM

Things may be different here in MA. Most games I know of and play at are in people's basements. From what I have seen, my place included, the security is better, and the parking is often safer. But I definitely see other values in moving the game, and I am pursuing that. Just for the sake of discussion, what do you think is so bad about running a raked game out of your house?

I wasn't asking for a fix per se, more just advice. I'm sure to some people his game IS more fun. For the crazy action players who want to play $1/$2/$40 instead of $1/$2, they'll get way more action at a table with deep pockets. I'm not calling a pre-flop raise to $40 with 87s when I have $200 in front of me, but I'll snap-call when I have $800. For a lot of people, they WANT four callers when they raise UTG with AJo, because they love the action. I know from experience that I'm no fun in those games. A side-effect of actually knowing how to play winning poker...

I actually have spoken with a consultant, a guy who runs games in another city. He suggested I double my rake, have no max buy-in and throw money around: every buy-in gets a 20% bonus, if you bust out three times, you get a 50% bonus to your next buy-in, etc. I actually understand his thinking, but that rake is simply crazy, and any intelligent player will recognize that it makes my game unbeatable, so why play? Who would want to buy-in for $150 when the guy on your left just bought in for $1,000? I would lose more players than I'd gain. And he keeps a $10,000 buffer on hand to cover cash-outs when he hasn't raked enough yet in the session. Not only can I not do that financially, but I also wouldn't even want to handle that much money. Fodder for thieves AND cops.

Lottery Larry · 01-07-2012, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrStrangePork

And yet, he runs 1-2 tables a night, just like me. And his players come to the table with $1,000+ in their pockets, whereas my players often come with one buy-in. My table regularly has roughly $2-3K in play, whereas he regularly has $5K+. My question is how do I get players with $1,000+ pockets to my game when they are fine playing with this dirtbag?

They probably don't give a damn about him (personally, I'd have problems not decking him for the daughter thing). The money goes where the money is.

Any way to recruit some high-roll players, for a special night? You can't mix the groups, I'm pretty sure.

Doubling your rake is absolutely crazy? How crazybad is your rake now?
And, are you reporting your income? Without having a problem with local or MA law?

DrStrangePork · 01-07-2012, 01:20 PM

My rake is $1 more than the CT casinos and less than any private game I know of. I know of only two places that rake double that: one is private, in Boston, has no max and the players regularly bring thousands to the table. I've played there five times, and twice I've seen two different guys drop $2,000 in the first hour and each reloaded for another $2,000. I cashed out in the black only once and only because I flopped a set of Q's against AK with an A on the flop. The other times I just couldn't compete with the $40 raises from UTG with multiple callers. The other game a charity cash club. And all I have ever heard about the place is complaints about the rake.

Ideas for recruiting high rollers are part of the reason I'm posting here. I run a 2/5 game once a month. I've only run it once and got 8 players, all of whom were players I already knew. Boston is a hot spot, as is the South Shore, and I live 30-60+ miles away from either, so it's hard to recruit players from those regions.

avaholic · 01-07-2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrStrangePork

Just for the sake of discussion, what do you think is so bad about running a raked game out of your house?

You mean other than the fact that running a for profit game is illegal? You are conducting a place of business that could get you in trouble (both legally and from a safety perspective) and are making your home a target for both robbers and potentially the police. I doubt you have your kids there when you are running a game, but the fact that you can't seem to separate your "home" from an illegal poker venue makes me wonder if your kids are there or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrStrangePork

A side-effect of actually knowing how to play winning poker...

This statement is hilarious. "Actually knowing how to play winning poker" includes being able to adjust to various game conditions. Are you implying that no one can play "winning poker" at the douche bag's game? There are different approaches you need to take to beat different games. Again, money follows money and if there is more action at the other game, then that in turn attracts the action players. Perhaps your game is made up of nits who buy in for 100BBs, raise the standard 3-4x, will only bet the nuts, and doesn't appeal to the kind of player you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrStrangePork

I actually have spoken with a consultant, a guy who runs games in another city.

With this advice, I wouldn't be surprised if you were the only client of this "consultant".

DrStrangePork · 01-07-2012, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avaholic

You mean other than the fact that running a for profit game is illegal?

Like I said, most games I play at are in people's homes/apartments, and all are illegal. Given that, there is nothing that makes my home a bigger or smaller target for robbers or police than any other game. In fact, the only 5/10 games I know of are run in private homes, and those would certainly be bigger targets than my game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by avaholic

This statement is hilarious.

It's not to me. I'm not losing $20,000/yr playing poker. I'm not raising 20xBB UTG with ATo and shipping it on a Q94 flop. But I know plenty of players who do, including some of my close friends. Ironically, I am one of the few players not in the red every year...

Quote:

Originally Posted by avaholic

With this advice, I wouldn't be surprised if you were the only client of this "consultant".

I may be, but I've seen his operation. Three full tables playing 1/3, and he said his other location had two tables of 2/5 that night. He had his whole bonus-for-buyins chart up for everyone to see right where the bank was located in the room. I would not have believed him had I not seen it for myself, and I'm still amazed it works. But, when the closest casino is 2+ hours away, lots of people will pay through the nose to stay local.

avaholic · 01-07-2012, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrStrangePork

Ironically, I am one of the few players not in the red every year...

Then you should write a book. You could call it "The Standard, Only Way, To Play Winning Poker".

So, nobody beats the game at the other place? That's crazy that all those people would dump so much money to go play at a place where no one ever wins and no one shows any profit.