UItra, if I saw you doing this at a home game and refuse to stop, I would re-consider playing in your game. You know why? Because I would be very suspicious that YOU were cheating. You are doing things that a cheater does. You.
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Originally Posted by UItra
Noticing a marked card and saying nothing isnt the same as marking a card yourself in a way that only you would probably know.
Yes, and smashing a store window isn't quite the same thing as looting after the fact, but they're both illegal and immoral.
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Originally Posted by UItra
I'm pretty sure most people who "knew something" would use it to every advantage they could, like a tell.
Not anybody here. It's even in the poker rulebooks that people have an ethical obligation to speak up about irregularities. So people not speaking up are, in fact, breaking the rules of poker.
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Originally Posted by UItra
If I felt like he had marked that card it would have been a different story.
And yet, this person has known about this marked card long enough for it to come up in a hand and be useful to him. This is cheating. There's no other way to look at it. You were cheated at your "honest" home game, and you're defending those who cheated you.
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Originally Posted by UItra
It's pretty easy to not muck on top the pre-dealt board the same way its easy to not splash chips in the pot.
It's pretty easy not to drive your car into oncoming traffic, and yet we all wear seat belts. In fact, I'd say my chances of getting in a car accident are far less than my chances of having a board ruined by a mucked hand or someone noticing a mark or someone just innocently seeing one of the cards as you deal it off the deck. And yet, I still wear a seat belt every time I get in a car.
And at least once a day I have to protect a pot against a pot-splasher. This is why I take steps to be aware of my surroundings and try to stop it before it happens. But every now and again I still have to reconstruct a pot because someone splashed it. This is never a fun experience.
As gedanken asked, do you still burn with this pre-run board? Why? Do you even know why we burn cards?
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Originally Posted by UItra
While I understand this argument, you guys are making like this happens a lot, and in such a way that the cards land in such a perfect way that you wouldnt be able to tell which cards are which.
It's the kind of thing that's never a problem until it is, at which point it's a HUGE problem. It's the same reason I wear seat belts.
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Originally Posted by UItra
Let me ask you this... how often is there an incident where you cannot tell which card went where, in any circumstance where there isnt a pre-dealt board?
This doesn't even make sense. Yes, I can tell where two cards go when there aren't any other cards around it. This is different thank knowing where two cards go when they get thrown into two other cards.
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Originally Posted by UItra
Misdeals probably happen like 1% of the time, most of which it's easy to figure out where which card is supposed to go.
Uh, if you know where the card is supposed to go and nobody has looked at it, then it's not a misdeal. A misdeal is when all the cards come back and you re-shuffle.
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Originally Posted by UItra
Sure, it does suck if there is a redeal and your first card was an A, but that happens regardless of the flop situation.
Are you saying that you don't recognize the difference between re-dealing a hand before there was any action, and having a hand irretrievably screwed up deep into it with a lot of money at stake?
This is the kind of thing that can destroy a home game permanently. I don't understand why you're choosing to play with fire and defending those who have cheated you.
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Originally Posted by UItra
While you play the hand yourself? This is a casual home game. We're eating pizza, drinking beer, smoking cigar, ect. This is a casual setting where there are lots of other things going on except poker at the same time. This is a lot different than a serious live setting.
Would you rather play a pick-up game of tackle football on a clean grassy field, or in a back alley with broken glass and used syringes?
The cleaner the playing surface and the more consistent the procedures and rulings, the more people can relax and have fun, because they're not worrying about things going tits-up.
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Originally Posted by UItra
And in that light, someone could be dealing from the bottom or doing bogus shuffling and you'd never know.
This is why we have procedures. The point of the procedures is so that you don't have to worry that someone might be cheating. If you keep clean procedures, then trust isn't a factor.
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Originally Posted by UItra
If I suspected someone was deliberately cheating I wouldnt play at that game. There is a level of trust that is a lot higher at a home game with friends than there is at a live game with strangers.
And that's exactly where cheaters thrive.
YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN CHEATED IN THIS GAME!
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Originally Posted by UItra
If I felt like the guy marked the card himself I would have definitely said something more accusatory. I didnt think he was "cheating", just being a little bit "sneaky" by not saying anything because it was obvious he saw it before I did.
He may or may not have smashed the window, but he definitely grabbed a free stereo. Different crime, but still a crime.
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If you were a dealer in my room and refused to stop doing this, I would petition to have you fired. If you were player in my home game and refused to stop doing this, you would no longer be a player in my home game.
KNOCK IT OFF!