Hi guys,

2 hours ago i got into a an argument with a friend of mine which got pretty heated and basically ended the game.

background on the game and the players involved:

we are playing in a friendly 5 handed small stakes home game
(10c/10c Blinds). The other guy and i have been playing within a small circle of people on and off for the last couple of years countless of times never having any problems.

we were already playing for a couple of hours and he was stuck about 40€ and i was up roughly the same amount

the following hand occurs :

i raise UTG with QJo and he calls IP.
The flop comes down Jack high - I cbet and he calls.
Turn blanks - i bet again and he calls.
The river pairs the Jack - i bet 6.80€ and he shoves for 11.5€ more.

i announce my hand and tell him "ah man i have the jack i dont think i can lay this down" and call.
He replies "yeah you win" and wants to muck his cards.
then i go "i'd much like to see your hands" (in german: ich würde schon gerne deine Hand sehen).
He responds "are you serious?" and proceeds to reveal his cards showing a busted flushdraw.

And now he's angry. For him it's bad etiquette and bad manner to ask for the losing hand to show their hand under any cirumstances stating that in our homegames we have never done that before.
And that is true. Not once before has one of the core players demanded from another player to see their mucked cards at showdown (i also have never asked to see a hand before) but here is the thing:

To my understanding the poker etiquette goes as follows that when you bet the river and get a call and you show the winning hand it is bad mannered to ask for the caller to show the hand he called with but when the opponent bets or raises and you are the caller and he mucks you can just let it slide (which i normally do) but it's perfectly fine to ask him to show his hand down.

now i have 2 questions

1:
Was i right with my assumption that in the poker community there's a general consent that it's bad mannered to ask the caller to show his cards but it's ok to ask the better/raiser (even though he already stated he lost)

2:
Do you think that if a person thinks it's accepted in a certain spot to request to see the losing hand that it's still a dick move to do so because it should be common sense that you just dont do that

While I know nothing about what is common in Germany, in the US it is bad etiquette to ask to see his hand if he doesn't want to show, especially in a friendly home game.

However, you are right that he is supposed to be the one to show first. After you called, you could have just waited to see his hand. He should then have either shown it, or just thrown away his hand, and then you could take the pot without showing yours either, if you didn't want to do so. There is a chance that would also be interpreted as acting rudely in a friendly home game, but less likely than the action you took.

Sun Tzu said, "Give your opponent a golden bridge to retreat upon." It is usually bad strategy to make them show, because you are burning that bridge. You will tilt them to the point where they quit. Politely show your hand and risk being slow rolled.

yes i know that it's bad etiquette to ask for the losing hand to show but i thought there was a distinction between between being the better and the caller.

when someone calls my bet i have to show down first anyway and you dont want to embarass someone who might have made a terrible call.

when I call a bet or a raise he was putting out the aggression, forcing the situation and it's not awkward showing a bluff (which is already assumed anyway when you muck your cards without your opponent having to show).

But i was wrong. There's no distinction apparently

It's a "friendly" home game, right? So why not keep it friendly and NOT do stuff that makes it unfriendly? Even if you have the right to do something , that does not mean you should do something.

Same thing in Germany, it's considered to be poor etiquette to ask someone to show their hand after they conceded the pot.

Trying to make an already tilting player show his hand, often leads to one of two outcomes. He either starts to spew even more or leave the game.

This is unfortunate. May have just sped up the inevitable, 5 handed and biggest stuck guy gets felted... might have ended soon anyway.


Why ask?
So many bad things could happen. What if he misread his hand and now shows up with a winner?

Curious? Maybe on the next hand you speculate on his hand, lament his tough luck that he ran into your rivered trips. Don't needle. Maybe something like "Did you have pocket tens? If I didn't catch that river jack, I might have folded". Insert whatever hand/range.

Want to know his range?

That he can bluff a busted draw? Now you know, and maybe he won't show you the busted draws again.

That he slowplays big pairs? Probably won't do that as often.

Congrats, you've encouraged someone to improve their play against you.



Yes, it's bad manners to ask to see a conceded hand. Almost regardless of the circumstance, it's a dick move.

the only problem with this scenario is often the raiser sees you're waiting for him to show, and they just say "you're good" without throwing their hand away. so you're really in the same sort of spot where there is no way to see their hand that isn't going to agitate a friendly game.

"If I'm good, then throw away your hand, and I'll take my pot".

I agree it's not ideal, in a friendly home game, but if this results in a problem, you can definitely say the other player is the bad guy who caused the problem. In the OP, the hero was the bad guy who caused the problem. Other guy shouldn't hold up the game in hopes of seeing hero's hand without being willing to show his own.

Show or not to show should be a personal choice IMO. Never force someone to show IMO.

We have one player in our game who (aside from from being really slow and deliberate), refuses to ever show first...everyone gets impatient, and shows their hand rather than waiting...when this guy has a losing hand, he just mucks and no one knows what he had - which, IMHO, is part of the game if you're the raiser/aggressor.

Just call the guy, and wait for him to muck/show. Don't do a thing until he does.

Or this +1

In our game we like to call this "muck equity". Vs. these types of players it can actually be porfitable to call with air (like busted draws) if you think there is a decent chance he thinks he's betting with the worst hand and will insta muck.

To the question of OP: in general when someone doesn't want to show in a home game I wouldn't force it.

In a home game I am never ever ever forcing somebody to show.

If they have to show first (because you called) I will sometimes not show until they decide to show or muck, although if they verbally announce ("I missed", or "you got it", and I beat it I will show and not make them show). That is only because in our home games nobody would ever angle shoot it, i.e. say "you got it" with a medium-strong hand to make you show then muck.


In a casino it is more straightforward and wish everybody would do this consistently. The last aggressive action shows first and that player can show or muck and should choose to do so instantaneously. If they show, then I instantly show if I can beat. If they muck to not give away the info, then I am going to muck after (slowly only after pot heads towards me) to also not give away info.