I play in a home game, we take turns dealing, and this problem happens about once every hour or two with a particular player.

He holds his cards in his left hand, about a quarter to half-inch above the felt, with his fingers surrounding the edges such that you can't see that he has cards unless you are on his right side. Even then, if your head is at the wrong angle, it's easy to miss the fact that he has cards. This player also tends to tank without moving when action is on him.

So you can imagine what happens: the dealer often can't see his cards, forgets he's in the hand, and starts the next action prematurely.

He's made it very clear he won't change his ways. And any premature action is clearly the dealer's fault. They way he holds his cards seems perfectly valid to me, just not optimal. I don't think anyone in a card room would object. He certainly will never have a problem with protecting his hand.

Yes, the dealer needs to remember how many people are in the hand. Yes, we need to tap the felt before burning and turning to give players an opportunity to speak up in case they were missed. It still happens a few times a night, either an indignant "WHOA WHOA WHOA! I'm still in the hand!" or he's still tanking and doesn't react until the premature burn and turn is done and then we have to do that whole procedure.

I don't think there's a solution here other than getting our dealers and players to be more diligent. Any ideas? Every time it happens he gets miffed, although it seems clear to me that even if it's not his fault, the way he holds his cards is certainly a problem because it keeps happening to him.

Home game? Social or underground raked? If it's social and I am dealing ,he gets only One indignant WHOA, WHOA, WHOA if his cards are hidden from me in ANY way. We then refer it to the host, which is me BTW. The house rule is that active cards must be visible. Not sometimes visible from a correct angle. Also folded cards must be put in the center muck, why, because nobody cares what you folded.

What you are describing is at a minimum annoying to deal with , and could lead to serious problems in some hands. I am surprised that it hasn't already. Maybe you just did not mention any.

I do not know your table dynamics. Who this guy is. Why the players, hosts let it go on. This would not be a long term problem at our game certainly. As host I would move to end this practice and would have plenty of support from the other players.

How can you say he hides his cards and it seems perfectly valid to you? Yiu see how this makes no sense. His cards should be visible.

Actually the way it works in a card room is everyone objects to being told to keep their cards visible and object to everyone else hiding their cards

Except for when he loses his action when multiple players skip him.


Part of the problem is that people have this attitude. You can't pretend this isn;t his fault. When you have that attitude he will never stop doing it. And it makes it impossible for a dealer to stop it when the attitude at the table is that its ok.

He has made it clear he won't change his ways. You should make it clear that the consequences will fall squarely on him. Any ambiguous situation should be ruled against him, in favor of his opponents. He may find himself losing his right to bet, or even with a dead hand.

I would go farther. If his attitude is that he will make no effort to change I would no longer allow him to play.

If the goal of the game is more social than financial, tbh he's being an a** and if he won't change, he may not be worth the hassle. If it's a serious game, I still think the onus is on him to protect his action, and I'd lean towards strict enforcement of the "visible cards" rule. politely or otherwise, it's up to the host to tell him to shape up or ship out.

OMG... I think one of the guys I used to play with is that particular player!!!

He has many bad habits that have tilted me in our friendly home game, so much so that I won't play with him anymore. He plays a lot in a casino card room, and when I've played with him it's the same antics. They don't care for it much there, but he tips very well, and is otherwise a very friendly and generous guy.

That being said, there have been some very good points raised here.

First, there is an obligation on each player to protect their action, as well as there hand. Keeping cards clearly visible goes a long way, as would some verbal and/or visual indication that he's got live cards, in the event that action skips him.

There are rules and procedures (see RRoP) already in place to deal with skipped players.

It should be a simple, but maybe not easy, solution to correct this problem. Yes, it's a problem, you wouldn't have posted otherwise.
1. Make the rules clear to everyone.
-- Keep your cards clearly visible.
-- Protect your actions.
-- Wait too long, your action is dead, minimum.

2. Follow the rules. This player, and seemingly your whole crew, is under a mistaken impression. Correct it, do things the right way. If the player is actually able to change, they will. If not, they will lose the advantage of seeing action behind.

Good luck.

I agree with this. Bad attitude, blaming others for his errors, and refusing to listen or change. This guy is no fun to play with. Stop inviting him.

Yeah, I agree with all of you. I tried to err on the side of the player in my original post, you all saw right past it. I specifically don't invite this guy when I host, he unfortunately turns up at other games I like to frequent. Unsurprisingly, he has some other table habits that annoy several of us.

I've occasionally been guilty of putting my hand on my cards to protect them, and covering them enough (on the table) so that the action skipped me. My bad. I try to avoid doing it.

Worse than me, imo, is the player who habitually holds his cards against his chest and leans back in his chair to look at them, especially in Omaha. The action often passes him by. But never very far. It's a pretty loose group. We just wind things back to the person missed.

And the difference between you and this other guy is that you acknowledge the issue and make an effort to avoid it ... while this other guy basically says **** you I can do whatever I want. That is why you should be invited back and the other guy not

The next time it happens, say something aloud, so that everyone at the table can hear, like, "I can't tell whether or not you're angle shooting when you hide your cards, perhaps hoping to gain improper advantage by learning what someone following you will do.

Please stop it.

Either put a chip on top of your cards or put just one finger on top of them, and make sure they're visible for all.

Please."

In other words, I suggest you publicly shame this jerk by suggesting to all that his motivation might be angle shooting.

Buzz

Missing his action is only the most obvious part of the problem. Another part is that players who are acting may not realize how many opponents they have, which can be extremely important. It's borderline angle-shooting.

It blows my mind that he gets so indignant about the errors he is causing. These errors aren't the dealer's fault. They're his fault. He's deliberately concealing his cards from the other players, and he knows it. Even if he didn't know it before, he does now, and instead of being accommodating, he is being stubborn about it. Each player is entitled to know who else is in a hand, and he's robbing people of that information.

The fact that he refuses to budge is even worse than the original problem, IMO. It speaks of a personality that I wouldn't want in my game, or frankly, anywhere in my life. Sounds like a dickhead, honestly.

You've done the right thing by not inviting him when you host. That's the one out that all home games have to deal with people like this, where a cardroom is kinda stuck with him. It's disappointing that other hosts haven't followed suit. He's making a nuisance of himself, and when confronted, puffing out his chest and declaring that he has a right to make a nuisance of himself. **** that.

If you want to try to do something about him in other games, maybe consider this. Whenever reasonable, on your action, ask him if he has cards. Never leave it to guesswork. If he gets stank about it—which I sense that he will—tell him you'd rather not ask, but he leaves you no choice because of how he hides them.

While we're here, what are his other annoying habits?

Ah, ok, I'll bite! I'll say this much: he's not a jerk or a dbag, despite the reaction he gives when we suggest he not hold his cards that way. In other words, one douchey habit does not make me label his entire personality.

He won't stfu, though. After winning a hand, he has to explain his entire thought process and use lots of poker terminology. If he folds, he gives a speech first. He's a bit patronizing, but it doesn't quite cross the line into dbagitry. (Yes, that's a new word.) I think I'd be ok socializing with him away from the poker table, although i doubt that will ever happen. If I had to psychoanalyze, I'd guess he's a bit insecure in life and winning in this poker game gives him an ego boost and an excuse to show off his knowledge. It's a juicy game and he's good enough to be a winner. (I'm just an intermediate player and I crush this game.)

He's also stoned more often than not and takes frequent smoke breaks during the game. That's the least annoying part.

Sometimes these players just can;t see the problem. They think their cards are visible so they think there is nothing wrong and other people are just making rules to make rules.

I have a friend who was also a dealer. he was telling me this story about why we was angry about how he was treated at a casino. He was playing and he was holding his cards just as was described here. A player complained and the dealer told him he couldn;t hold his cards like that. He would not accpet that. Because in his mind the cards were clearly visible and the player was only complaining to be a jerk. The floor was called and told him he couldn;t holdhis cards that way. So he cashed out and left.

Me and him argued about this for quite a while. I tried to explain to him that people can;t see the cards when he holds them that way. He simply believes that is not true. He says he can see the cards when people hold them that way so therefore people can see his cards.

There was no convincing him ..... because though he agrees with the rule that you must keep your cards visisble he is blind to the factual issue that holding them that way prevents them from being visible.

Preach. Not wanting to hijack, but someone who was a good friend of mine away from the table, won't accept that I find him too annoying to play with. We haven't exchanged much more than simple pleasantries since last June. I think in his case, it's a simple lack of respect. He doesn't respect the players, or the game. He takes much more time than anyone else to make a simple decision, makes things less clear that needed, and makes unnecessary comments to players. Outside the game, he is kind, generous and a funny-annoying guy. I suspect that if he took frequent breaks, it would be more tolerable.

I was struggling for something to say in response to the "I'll bite" post, but this pretty much hits it on the head.

The way he holds his cards is a quirk. There's nothing inherently wrong with him wanting to hold them in his own peculiar way.

But how he responds to the dealer missing his action, his blaming everyone else for the mistakes he's causing, and his refusal to consider managing his cards in another way are all disrespectful—as are several of his other quirks.

It seems like he's at the table to show other people who's boss, more than he is there to play cards and genuinely socialize. It's apparently an ego thing for him. That doesn't mean he can't be a decent guy away from the table, but his approach at the table, regardless of his poker skill, is wrongheaded.

Exactly.

Buzz

It doesn't matter if he is Captain Kangaroo away from the table , he doesn't get to partially or completely hide his cards from the other players and dealers. This can and does create errors large and small. This is a basic rule of poker, not some anal players wanting to have things their way

I see this problem all the time in my home game (not this player, just hands getting concealed and causing confusion), especially playing "strange" games or Omaha. The players can't remember their cards or need to study them at length to read the hand + the board. I could ask all I want, but they players feel the need to treat their poker hands more like a bridge hand in some situations. It isn't malice, it isn't being stubborn - they need to hold their cards in hand and study them to play the game.

I appreciate these players aren't the same as the guy described in the OP. However, we resolve the problem in my games by being patient and accept that there will be a number of times each session where the action has to be rewound to deal with a missed player.

It would not be good for the game to try harsh remedies with players needing to study their hands. The mixed games would dry up and wither and we might even lose a player or two because they felt we were being "mean".

I am not advocating giving the player in the OP a pass. I am suggesting that hosts need to keep perspective about why problems happen and try to make decisions that are good for their game even if a casino run game wouldn't make the same decision.

DrStrange

Absolutely agree with you on this one Doc. Hosts/players must give some (often a lot) of lee way in situations to certain players who are having trouble handling/reading their cards in some special games. Beginners also deserve gentle advice on this subject. Friendly games mean acting friendly IMHO.

However, as to the the guy in the OP , well I see this as a totally different ballgame.Don't think we disagree here.

He doesn't get to decide was 'visible' means.

"I have to protect the game. I've told you what the challenge about your style of play is. Next time action passes you in error, or I deal a board card in error, or a player turns his hand over / acts in error, then I will rule your hand dead irrespective of the situation."

Intentions of being a jerk (or not) aside, he has to realize in a home game that democracy rules when it comes to this - if the majority of players at the table have issues with it then either tell him to change or threaten to stop inviting him. Have him sit a game or two out and I bet he will change his tune (and if he doesnt then just go find yourself a new/better regular to add).

GL OP

Well the floor told him he couldn't hold his cards that way so he left.... but he left convinced that he was in the right.

Would agree with this all the way, we have a similar approach. We also have the house rule that you must keep cards visible if your cards are active.

When new players come in (no matter their level) we explain the house rules. Being patient with beginners is fair but if it happens regularly to an experienced player then something needs to be said.