where are you moving too?

I got it. Context, baby. Context.

But your conclusion is based on the not-always-true premise that the evidence can be destroyed/eaten/flushed in a short period of time. Guns, poker chips and tables, large amounts of cash, and a half-ton of pot are all examples of things that are probably still going to be there a minute later.

There's a difference between:
a) Briefly setting off a siren, announcing yourself as police after tossing a flash-bang in the backyard, then busting open the door ten seconds later, and
b) Knocking on the door, identifying yourself as police, asking the person inside to open the door, then busting it down after they know who you are and have refused to cooperate.

Both options generally get the job done, though, and how long does the second option take? A minute, maybe 90 seconds?

And unless proven otherwise, I'll assume that the nature of what they suspect to find inside a raid also factors into the decision of what sort of approach to take when serving the warrant - since the overwhelming majority of warrants aren't served by SWAT teams.

I found a limited statistic for citizen deaths at the hands of police for 2011. (well I didn't find it, I set the political fact checkers at tonight's card game on the mission.) The source is unofficial, a private individual, a blog set up to study this issue. It is the internet - who knows how accurate.

Bottom line is twelve citizens died at the hands of police for every one officer killed by civilains in 2011. (note that there are other police deaths not caused by hostile civilians, primarily traffic accidents.) I expect this count is low based on the methods described. Its hard to check every jurisdiction in the USA one-by-one.

DrStrange

Clearly a result of the increasing militarization of our police force.

You know, I am starting to think SWAT should not of been used. I can t see see any case in police busting a gambling operation where they would need this fire power. Even knowing there is a guard out front, it is a little excessive. I would still be interested to know what report the police received about the place.

Well maybe this, a reach I know. Maybe cops know that underground rooms and some larger home game have some guns around to protect against robbers bursting in. I have a .410 SG and a 22 derringer type pistol within reasonable reach in the card room ( even though our game is a pittance lol). Maybe knowing this, they want to overwhelm any resistance to a perceived robbery by folks who would not normally resist police. I know, a reach!

Hyperbole is fun.

Beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia.

After I posted the question I recalled you said something about that. Only a few things you have to remember when living in Canada.

1: Hockey is our game

2: We won the war of 1812. ( the US invasion of the British colony known as upper Canada)

3: Tim Hortons is the only real coffee.

And this video may be helpfull.

(grin)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg

The map is a year or three old but . . .


http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...8_CcHS2aFE3ZZw

If you are truly interested in how often these types of raids go bad, just google "an isolated incident", which is how the police CONSTANTLY refer to botched raids. And in the case that has been discussed here, there is no independent (read non-police) verification that they shouted ANYTHING before busting down that guys door. He was no saint, but that did not mean he deserved a bullet (or several, as the case may be). Sorry Pali, and sorry for the pun, but you are otu-gunned on this one.

Milo,

The problem is, you've got no counter. There's no alternate United States with a SWAT-less police force for you to compare stats to. You've got no control group. Because of our special perpensity for gun violence, you can't even compare us to another country with similar gun ownership. The only thing either of us can do is guess if it'd be better if it were different.

I get your point, but we disagree.

Guarena didn't deserve a bullet, but he got one earmarked for him long before he aimed his AR-15 at armed police.. ..probably around the time he started moving tons of cartel pot.

That "may" be the case . . . but it became a certainty, when the entered his home unannounced (independent witnesses have claimed no warning was shouted. the cops, naturally disagree). Even if I stipulate he was involved in illegale activities, he still has a right to self defence against unknown assailants. That is the problem with the "Sovereign Immunity" statutes. A civilian has no recourse against this kind of crap because, when it is just a harmless granny, the cops shrug their shoulders and go on their about their lives. Did you even look at the map in the link I posted today. that is a HELL of a lot of mistakes, and more than a few needless deaths. So where is the meticulous planning and strategy development you were bragging baout at the beginning of this mess?

Finally, I do not NEED a counter. Your country was founded on the ideal of personal libertyand responsibility, that the State was beholden to it's citizenry and NOT the other way round. Actions like this give the lie to those concepts, because no one seems to want to hold the police as a group, and the officers as individuals, RESPONSIBLE. If the State is not accountable to it's citizens, well . . . isn't that why you got rid of the Brits in the first place? ****, I'm a Canuck and I understand that much . . .