I hope this was meant ironically or as some form of joke. "America, love it or leave it"? One of the defining values of the USA is being able to criticize our government. This isn't China ...or Syria.

l...also the stolen gun found at his house. [At least per the initial report, no mention in the wiki article..]

A reminder from us in AZ: Drug business in the south of the state is NASTY, NASTY stuff. Don't buy Brewer's hype about beheadings all over the place, but if you're in Tucson and you're close to people moving half a ton of pot, that's Beltran Leyva or Sinaloa cartel business -- or you're moving drugs in their territory.

If this guy was believed to have had ties to either of those groups, SWAT was likely warranted.

And from your linked wikipedia article:
Not just his brothers (who are on the run) but his wife.

---


In short, I stand by my initial feeling that Guerena was a bad man who was involved with moving cartel dope with his family through southern Arizona. Him going for the gun wasn't some sort of accident.

He is moving to Canada with his new bride-to-be. So yes, it was meant to be a joke. Maybe it was a poor one.

Two things concern me a lot: the police lied about being shot at first, and then acted to seal all of the documents after the raid. Neither activity sounds like the acts of someone I would want making potentially life or death decisions regarding me.

meh, I was probably being a bit tone-deaf first thing in the morning (worked late).

I wish him happiness up there (and may be going the same direction, for different reasons).

There's a big difference between believing that you're being shot at and lying about being shot at first.

SWAT is very well trained for entering unknown places. They are very quick thinking, and trained to analyze possible threats. The use of SWAT in this case, well we do not know what report they received on what was going on. Maybe they were told there were drugs and gambling going on inside. Maybe they were told there was more then one armed guard. we don t really have all the information.

I would imagine, their terms or conditions on when to use SWAT takes into account whether the bad guys are armed.

There are a few statements similar to this in the thread, just picking one out. The idea is that "the criminals are armed, we must use swat!". I think this is an irrational response, and this orlando bust is a decent example of why. The armed guard is not there to get into a firefight with police with his 9mm handgun. If the cops announce their presence, there is far LESS likelihood of shooting than if they try to bust the door down. See the past story of the game in south carolina where the cops screwed up the entry part, and a shootout started before the homeowner figured out it was cops. (not to defend the numskull firing through a closed door).

People have said "cops must gather evidence and do recon before sending in swat". If that's true, why do they need to bust through the door and seize a bunch of evidence they've already got?

If the goals are to discourage illegal games and not destroy a bunch of property and get dogs and people shot, my notion of policing would have the cops knocking and establishing their identity before entering. Are we worried that people are going to flush the chips and tables down the toilet? And if they do... meh, the game will still break up, and the message will spread that the cops aren't looking the other way in this town.



I think you are missing the point here. You run a game with lots of people at your house. Do I remember correctly that you sometimes take a rake (making the game technically illegal?)? You certainly are armed, as evidenced by photos and statements you yourself have posted to the internet.

You might be skirting right up to the type of games that HAVE been raided. I recently met people involved in the San Mateo raid, and their game is very much like many other home games I've been to and I'm sure all of us would characterize as your basic home home game. Small amounts of money, cheap tables/chips/cards, self dealt, a network of friends with a casual interest in poker, no rake, host put out pies, byob. Thankfully, nobody was armed, or the raid might have been more dramatic. In the end, there wasn't much or anything illegal about the game -- the cops were simply poorly informed and overaggressive. It happens.


exactly. Are we trying to prevent and avoid confrontations, or provoke them?

Thanks for posting this, nicely done. I wish you the best and thank you for your efforts in the public service.

We're all armed in Phoenix


The police have been summoned to my house several times for noise-related complains on poker night. [The neighbors keep calling, and the cops keep showing up and pretty much shrugging their shoulders, since there's nothing worth calling them about...] One thing that's not happening is that my house certainly isn't being a place of business where an illegal game happens that would merit a month-long surveillance.


The only rake we've ever taken was as part of a voluntary WSOP thing. The house (my house) has never, ever, kept a dime.

To catch them in the act, and to prevent the operators from destroying any evidence / record-keeping they might have.

Cops are at the door. Flush the drugs and smash the flash drive.

Is that so bad? Is the benefit of gathering that extra evidence a justification for an armed confrontation?



This is a function of your luck with local cops who don't prioritize your game, not because all cops are willing to look the other way. Even if your game is technically legal, it's not guaranteed that someone can't convince a judge that it needs to be raided to find out for sure. The game in San Mateo was also a league, with stakes no larger than wsop seats.

We have a term for "technically legal" 'round these parts.

Legal.

YES! Without it, you just have a handful of your own dick and a wasted afternoon.

Well, your honor, we had good enough cause to get a search warrant to FIND WHAT THE WARRANT WAS LOOKING FOR and then we sat outside on the porch while he flushed it down the toilet.

I think what's missing here is a clear sense of long-term political views. Illustrating a trend towards a police state isn't going to sway somebody who prefers living in a police state.

I'm finding all of this very interesting. I don't pretend to have anywhere close to an informed opinion, so I appreciate the various perspectives. It's a complicated and emotional issue.

Whew! I wasn't sure, either. I thought probably, but I've been surprised by people before. Jingoism is prevalent in this country.

Can't wait 'til I move... two months to go! Tho' I need to wait 90 days for healthcare. That's okay, I've been waiting 10 years already.