I can't speak for others, but I'm not arguing that the guy was a saint. I'm arguing that the SWAT raid on his home was complete overkill and resulted in an unnecessary death.

When his sister-in-law and two relatives were arrested a year later for narcotics offenses, it was done outside their home by plainclothes officers serving a regular old search warrant - and Pima County Sheriff's Office had a lot more evidence against these folks than they had against Jose Guerena.

Except they really didn't have any evidence that this guy was dealing drugs, even after the raid resulting in his death. Oops.

In that case, it makes even more sense to reserve SWAT for the times when it is really needed - wouldn't you agree?

It may not have been clear from the story, but those officers were at the wrong house and killed an innocent man.
Who says he did? The same people who said he was shooting at them until that was proved false. It's hard to take the police's word for it when they change their story so many times:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_867020.html

The weapon's safety wasn't released. Video shows them forcing open the door and firing almost immediately.
That's a pretty strange position to take. A scenario in which police storm houses and innocent citizens are killed by the government would suggest something in the system is broken.

A couple police officers could have stopped by and asked to speak to the suspect. They would have quickly ascertained he didn't live there. Nobody dies.

I'm late to this but I'd like to make the following points -

• I'm pretty much a law and order guy. My default is to back the police.
• Police departments have SWAT teams because there has been so much federal money funding them that they can't turn it down.
• If you have a SWAT team you need to use it.
• Since you need to use your SWAT team you look for reasons to do so.
• And since your SWAT team is going in anyway why waste time investigating.
• This leads to the wrong house being invaded and dogs being shot.
• SWAT teams are used way too much.
• The Golden Kitty needs to move somewhere else since this country is so screwed up. Like maybe Canada.

Or the target of a month-long drug surveillance uses his AR-15, or his stolen shotgun to kill them. One or the other. Since you're just throwing out guesses.

Pima is the county that surrounds Tucson. The PCSO works hand-in-hand with the TPD.

There's some minor politics going on between the Maricopa and Pima Counties, both sheriffs make national news on crime, gun, and immigration issues regularly.

[Just passing that along...]

+1 Absolutely, I give them the benefit of the doubt until there is evidence otherwise.

But to think that they are always in the right, because they are the experts and the ones putting their lives on the line...no. They can make plenty of mistakes, and occasionally do.

Any police officer worth anything will know this is true.

So, in spite of my pilfered cartoon (don't raid!), I do question authority.

Nobody here thinks they're infallible, despite the number of 'experts' in the thread.

I disagree about increasing the chance of someone being killed. I think by using SWAT, it decreases the chances of death. These SWAT guys train a great deal going into unknown places for quick take downs. That is their job. They are smart, quick and inshape.

I;m not saying patrol cops can t do it, just SWAT is better trained.

Do you need SWAT to bust a poker game with $1600, LOL, there must have been bad intel somewheres. I would like to know if anymore news has come out on thius raid.

I read about a raid a few years ago here in anada in the Province next to mine. First reports came out that it was because of a poker game and there were cries of police wasting their time on this stuff. A few days later, further news reports came out indicating booze and drugs were being sold on the scene.


And no, SWAT was not used.

Just as a side bar - - I went looking for statistics on how many civilains are killed by the police. It seemed relevant in determining the cost / benefit of high aggression law enforcement strategies. I didn't have any luck. I found no national statistics on civilain death rates.

Best I found was a statement from the FBI saying they were not tasked by congress with collecting this information and do not collect it. You can find a wide array of crime statistics, a limited amound of budget information but no systemic body count of slain US citizens. If that is true rather than a testament to my lack of serach skills, it says a lot about the mindset of law enforcement that they will not even bother to collect this information.

My anecdotal opinion is that the public has far more to fear from the police than the police have to fear from criminals. Even so, I think the public still has more to fear from criminals than the police.

I would be very interested if someone here could help me out and point to a source reporting leathal police actions vs civilains.

DrStrange

Sure, SWAT is well-trained, but trained for what exactly? They are trained for high risk encounters. Their training does not apply to this scenario. Thats like saying you want SWAT to host your birthday party. They're not mascots, they're SWAT. Utilizing a force like SWAT to bust a poker game is not kind of encounter they are trained for. When people are put in a situation they are not trained for, accidents happen. Let the police bust the game, they are the civilian force trained for entering domiciles and engaging law abiding citizens and know what kind of threats to expect, and how people are likely to react to their presence.

Source?

Maybe I missed it, but I've read multiple articles on this situation (including the HuffPo links you've posted), and all of them indicate that they were at the right house. Granted, the warrant was a search warrant for the residence and not an arrest warrant for Guerena, but they weren't there by mistake.

We have a similar situation here, which is why I corrected my mistake when I noticed it.

Orlando is in Orange County, and we have both an Orlando PD and an Orange County Sheriff's Office (the latter was involved in the poker bust that started this thread). Turf wars between the two are uncommon, but OCSO has a history of being a bit on the heavy-handed side compared to Orlando PD.

I have an Orlando address but live outside the city limits and thus fall under the jurisdiction of OCSO.

Since I said "in my opinion" right before the part of my post that you quoted, I will allow you to disagree.

I think the use of SWAT may arguably decrease the chances of an LEO getting killed, but the quick overwhelming force that they typically use creates a highly dangerous situation for civilians - both those who are targeted and those who just happen to be nearby.

Again, this is my opinion. I would really love to see some statistics, and I'm disappointed that DrStrange couldn't find anything. The only info I've been able to find is a "Botched Paramilitary Police Raids" map at the CATO Institute, and I'm not sure how accurate or slanted this info might be.

I went back and checked, since it had been a several months since I'd followed the story. After the claim of "He shot first" got debunked, and nothing illegal was on site, and the safety was on, it started looking bad and claims were made they were looking for his brother. Then the county asked judge to seal the search warrant and the family sued. Then libertarian blogs picked it up.

His brothers and in-laws have since been indicted on a big marijuana smuggling operation, and he himself had 5 cars registered in his name (cars registered to family members are a common drug money-laundering technique) with no income to support. So, at the least, he was very close to people who were dealing.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crim...2969902b8.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Guerena_shooting

I played around Otown while I was in college, this game must not have been running when I was around, but I'm surprised there is noone from the game on 2p2