Hello,

I am planning a Shoot-out style tournament for later this month. I searched through this forum to make sure my question wasn't asked before.

From reading the threads on shoot-out structures I found that there is differing opinions on what one looks like.

This is how I plan to operate it:
- 2 tables, 8 -10 players per table
- 1 rebuy per player
- if 2 tables, final 3 players move onto final table
- 4th player from each player plays super turbo to join final table
- 7 players at final table, stacks reset on final table

I am having a hard time estimating when the first round will be completed. For regular tournaments I have had a lot of success using (total chips)/20 = big blind, but in this case the first round ends with final 3 players at each table.

How do I estimate when the round one tables will be down to 3 players?
Based on previous game logs I am thinking of (total chips)/50 = big blind when we get to 3. That would put it at ~3 levels before a normal game would end.

Does anyone have input on this?

Thanks,
Grant

My suggestion would be to make a few changes. First, I would eliminate the re-buys if you are doing a shoot-out. This gets a little funky in this format for obvious reasons. Second, I would set a time for the first part of the shoot-out (maybe two hours, four levels). Once the clock strikes 0:00, you take the top 3 from each of the tables and the highest stack left from either table. Third, you can take the stacks from the initial tables to the final table. There are several pros and cons for this system and you should retain stacks or reset based on what is best for your player group.

Thank you for the feedback. Some of the changes I have made do definitely stray from standard shoot-out tournaments.

Rebuys: Having rebuys allows us to have a lower starting buy-in but still be able increase the prize pool. It will result in the first round dragging on a little longer, but the limit of one rebuy shouldn't make a huge impact to the ending time of the first round. We always do rebuys a little funky in that we allow rebuys until the money bubble is reached. The blinds usually act to deter rebuys at a certain point (except for the extreme gamblers).

Time limit: I think this has a lot of merit. At the end of the day I don't want the overall poker tournament to go past 6 hours. This can act as insurance to make sure the first round doesn't drag on too long. Currently it looks like round 2 will take about 3 hrs.

Final table chips: I like the extra twist that re-setting chips at the final table adds. The starting stack will be 10X the tournament starting stack (50,000 vs 5,000) but that doesn't really matter as the blinds will be set to accommodate the larger starting stack. The fact that the chip leader and someone who is very short stacked are back to equal footing can lead to an interesting dynamic.

I've used Blind Valet a lot previously and find that it does a good job of estimating when a tournament will end---a general rule of thumb is that when the average stack is 10x the big blind, it will be over soon.

I have no problem estimating the end of a normal tournament (95% of the time I find end when BB is equal to (total chips)/20 works).

I want to know when to estimate when I will get down to 3 players.

Thanks
Grant

Will still be pretty close to accurate, plus if anything it will overestimate so you'll have some extra time which is better then the alternative

The issue with re-buys is not with lengthening the first round. That would only change the amount of the total chips and that should not be an issue, particularly if you are going to have it done with a time limit. The issue is going to be that if you allow a re-buy (particularly later in the shootout) then you are giving a player a just below average stack at the table. There will be players at the table that are below the re-buy level. This will cause people to play for a re-buy instead of making correct poker decisions. This is fine in a regular tournament because you will need 3-4x the starting stack in order to compete at the final table. In a shoot-out, you could re-buy late and then work your stack to just make the final table (and then get a reset on the stack as well).

Then I might go for five 30-minute rounds in the first round. If you have a 5,000 starting stack and 25/50, 50/100, 75/150, 100/200, and 150/300, you should be 20-25BB/player at the end of round 1 which should allow for some really good play through the first 2.5 hours.

Re-setting the chips is fine, but I think that continuing the 30-minute blinds (200/400, 300/600, etc.) with a 5k starting stack would get your 7-person table finished up in 3-3.5 hours and the whole thing done in your 6 hour time limit.

I see what you are saying about the re-buys... I'm just not sure that encouraging correct play trumps building the payout pot (rebuys usually account for a 40-50% boost).

I am currently using the levels you suggested - 25/50 onwards, but I am not sure on a 4,000 or 5,000 starting stack yet. I was also planning on using 20 minute levels.

I am going to pull the logs for 5-6 of the last weekly tournaments to see when they got down to three people (similar structure, single rebuy). Once I have this info I will re-evaluate the starting stacks, structure, and timing, etc.

Thanks,
Grant

I am running this tournament tonight.

Fyi, based on the last few weeks of poker and some random logs I have looked at the first round will definitely be down to 3 by 500/100.

Here is what I have decided to do:

Starting chips 5,000 - 1 rebuy in the first tournament

Top 3 players from round 1 move on to final table, the 4th player from each table play a super turbo and winner goes to the final table.

Final table chipstacks reset to 50,000.


1st Round - 20 minute levels - 5,000 chips (1 rebuy)
25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000

4th Place Finisher Playoff Round - 10 minute levels - 25,000 chips each
500/1000
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000

2nd Round Tournament - 25 minute levels - 50,000 chips each
500/500 (Optional, if both round 1 tables end before 500/1000)
500/1000
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
5000/10000
6000/12000
8000/16000
10000/20000

The reason I am using 500/500 is because I want to keep the 100 chips off the table.

5,000 Starting Stack
8 x 25
8 x 100
4 x 500
2 x 1000

50,000 Starting Stack
20 x 500
20 x 1000
4 x 5000

I am using more chips than I normally would for the 50,000 starting stack since there are no rebuys and I think it will be more fun for the final table people to have larger stacks.

Thanks,
Grant