July 2012 Open Thread

[lanyi]

Originally Posted by Schmendr1ck

Yeah, it was a clear fold, and I @!$#ed it up. But the other factor was the cash game that was waiting for me to jump in, and I'm sure this contributed to my decision to shove.

Last tourney I played (which was about a year ago...) I made the same reasoning stacking off with JJ<QQ when the circumstances really didn't warrant it, expcey that we were just before the table merge and I didn't want to be the guy who busts afterwards but doesn't have a spot open at the cash table when he does.

[lanyi]

Hand from last night I thought I'd run by you guys. Isn't terribly important to warrant a separate thread.

Open raise to 4xbb from a LAG in the HJ. Guy on the BTN to my immediate right 3-bets to 12xbb. His 3-betting range is something like 88+, AJo+, KQo+. He also tends to call with most of his 3-betting range when 4-bet, even if he just c/f the flop after calling half his stack PF. A few orbits earlier I 4-bet with AA vs. his 3-bet. On the flop he c/f when my shove was around a psb anyway.
I look down at JJ and 3-bet to 30bb. This is for value since I expect him to call with worse, and I don't want to play postflop OOP without initiative. Folds around to him and he starts talking saying: "what, you doing this again?" and gives me this speech that "I don't think you have anything" looks at how much I have behind (just under 70bb) and then 5-bets to 100bb. I think for all of 10 seconds, this has "the speech" written all over it and muck. He later claims to have had 22 and just decided "to test me". Seems unlikely to me given he didn't raise by 3-bet PF and this didn't seem likely.

I'm overthinking this right?

[dugthefish]

Originally Posted by lanyi

I'm overthinking this right?

Your overthinking this.

This is precisely this reason I don't often cold 4-bet with less than the top of my range (AA, KK, AKs). I would rather play a smaller pot OOP or call a panic shove from the original raiser than get put in this ugly spot.

[Precept2]

Originally Posted by dugthefish

Your overthinking this.

This is precisely this reason I don't often cold 4-bet with less than the top of my range (AA, KK, AKs). I would rather play a smaller pot OOP or call a panic shove from the original raiser than get put in this ugly spot.

In the LLSNL forum, they often say, "If you weren't planning on calling a 5-bet, you shouldn't have 4-bet."

I'm not sure how I feel about the statement, but I too would have just called. I would prefer to just set mine for 12 BBs (even though we're not getting good enough implied odds here against the 3-bettor, but if the original raiser calls, then we're likely good in the implied odds department).

Oh, and you're overthinking it. You know better than that. You know not to trust anything someone says at the poker table.

[lanyi]

I think the 4-bet on its own is ok for value here. He is more active then most in 3-betting what he preceives as value hands and he's flatting my 4-bet most of the time with this range: all his broadways (AJo+, KQ+, probably ATs as well), medium PP's (88-TT) and some SC's sometimes too.

His shove range here is just completely skewed and I'm not getting the odds to call here vs. QQ+. And I haven't caught him 3-bet light once. So that's why I was skeptic that he would 3-bet light with 22, although he was on the BTN and the LAG in HJ opens like 50% of his hands give or take so it's not a bad move, just not one I would give this guy credit for.

And the speech, that was really the clincher. I mean the whole "I think you're FOS, RAISE!" shpeal, is this ever not AA in this spot?

[gedanken]

Originally Posted by lanyi

I think the 4-bet on its own is ok for value here.

well then, that's that. If you really expected him to flat with anything worse than your jacks there's really no question that you should fold to the shove.

I also concur with your suspicion that speech = aces.

[philthy415]

Originally Posted by gedanken

I also concur with your suspicion that speech = aces.

Sometimes I'll use the speech/raise with AK to rep AA. It's a play that gets a fold 99% of the time for me. If not at least I have 6 outs vs most PPs

[Schmendr1ck]

Originally Posted by gedanken

well then, that's that. If you really expected him to flat with anything worse than your jacks there's really no question that you should fold to the shove.

I also concur with your suspicion that speech = aces.

Came here to say this but was beaten to the punch.

Originally Posted by Precept2

In the LLSNL forum, they often say, "If you weren't planning on calling a 5-bet, you shouldn't have 4-bet."

I'm not sure how I feel about the statement, but I too would have just called.

I'm not a fan of Hero flatting the 3-bet, and I think a 4-bet/fold is a good line.

I don't like going to a three-way flop OOP with a middle pair, even one as big as JJ. Also, the LAG in HJ has a very wide range here, and Hero is going to have a tough time narrowing it down if he just calls. Third, by flatting, Hero is passing up an opportunity to get more money in the pot with a hand that is likely best at the moment. Hero's read is that BTN will flat a 4-bet with the portion of his 3-bet range that is behind. If BTN 5-bets, Hero can play perfectly and fold the jacks which are certainly crushed.

If I'm in this spot and BTN calls, I will sometimes check dark before the flop. This helps with pot control and my positional disadvantage, and a fit-or-fold Villain like BTN often tells you when he missed by checking behind.

[mariettabull]

Just as a note, I'm envious of Amicusnole's turnout last night. I got to his game about two and a half hours after start due to waiting for the wife to get home from work, and there were 8 at the table. I made 9 and number 10 showed up about a half hour later.

As far as how I ran last night, I started out rather luck warm, partially due to being completely card dead and being to the right of two of the tougher players at the table (I thankfully had one of the other tough players on my immediate right). I did have one memorable hand against one of them (note, Villain/Hero used here in their traditional roles, but I freely admit to being the Villain in this piece in reality). I called pre-flop with 7s/2s, having every intention of trying to steal the pot. The flop came down K/Q/J, one spade. Two checks in front of me, I check, and the villain to my left puts out a bet of $3, saying 'Let's see how top pair sits.' Two folds back to me, and I raise to $10. He smooth calls me, and the turn is the 10s. I lead out again for $15, and he smooth calls me. The River is the As, and I put out a bet of $30. Now, this was amusing in part because the player to my right had called Broadway on the Board coming after the flop. After the villain calls, I call 'Flush' and table my 7s/2s. This is greeted by a disgusted 'Of course you do' as he mucks. He told me later he had A/10, having flopped Broadway.

About midnight, my partner for my Tuesday night game packed it in, so I moved to her seat both for more leg room (moving from seat 5/6 to seat 9) and to get a position change on my abusers. About an hour later, we were down to six handed and convinced Amicusnole to go to a PLO/NLHE rotation. I had one notable hand where I had top set hold up to the river (Board didn't pair, flush didn't get there, and the straight was unlikely), taking down a fairly large pot.

By the time the game broke about 2:30, I cashed out up about 150BB.

Now I just need the Rungoot to pull into port for me on Sunday. I'm going to a new game (for me) that's a PLO8/PLO/NLHE rotation. I just have to bring a whip to keep the variance monster at bay.

[Schmendr1ck]

Originally Posted by mariettabull

I called pre-flop with 7s/2s, having every intention of trying to steal the pot. The flop came down K/Q/J, one spade. Two checks in front of me, I check, and the villain to my left puts out a bet of $3, saying 'Let's see how top pair sits.' Two folds back to me, and I raise to $10. He smooth calls me, and the turn is the 10s. I lead out again for $15, and he smooth calls me. The River is the As, and I put out a bet of $30. Now, this was amusing in part because the player to my right had called Broadway on the Board coming after the flop. After the villain calls, I call 'Flush' and table my 7s/2s. This is greeted by a disgusted 'Of course you do' as he mucks. He told me later he had A/10, having flopped Broadway.

Something similar happened to me in my most recent casino 1/2NL session. I was stuck and called Villain's three barrels with TP, having a read that he was bluffing but unaware that he'd backed into a runner-runner flush with his 72s.

I was already stuck two BI before this hand, and I was so tilted afterwards that I wanted to put a chair through the wall. So by extension, you're a jerk too.

[mariettabull]

Originally Posted by Schmendr1ck

I was already stuck two BI before this hand, and I was so tilted afterwards that I wanted to put a chair through the wall. So by extension, you're a jerk too.

Freely acknowledged. As I noted, I should really be the Villain in the tale. Convention requires me to phrase myself otherwise. ;-)

All in all, it was a good night out, and Amicusnole is always a gracious host.

[Schmendr1ck]

Tomorrow night is my second monthly Saturday dinner/NLHE tourney, and so far I've got 17 of 20 seats filled.

Last month was a little frantic, but I think it should be easier this time. Tonight after work I'll shop, prep dinner, stock the fridge, and bag up the starting stacks while watching TV. The poker room is already set up since I hosted on Tuesday and never tore it down, so a little touch-up cleaning is all I need to do.

Hell, if all goes according to plan, I might be able to lounge a little bit tomorrow!

[Schmendr1ck]

Last night's tourney was a success, though not as lucrative as I'd hoped for myself. I had two full tables and was one of the big stacks at the dinner break, but a streak of runbad chipped me down, and then I did something that put me out of the tourney (and that I've been kicking myself for since).

A large group of people (6 of the 17 players) decided to opt out of dinner. I ask players to contribute $10 each for dinner, snacks and drinks, and one of the six gave me five bucks for drinks & snacks. Money wasn't an issue this time - I came in under budget and was able to almost break even from those who did pay. But I'm not sure how to handle this for future events. I had a ton of food left over, because I cooked generously for 18 and fed only 12. Any suggestions from those who have done this type of dinner event are welcome.

So back to my glorious bustout. Blinds are 500/1000, and I have a little over 20k (just under average). Since the dinner break ended I have been card dead and unable to find a good spot to steal. I've picked up the blinds once, but otherwise have not won a pot in an hour. Villain to my right has a big stack - he's college age, seems solid and has probably played online based on his talk, but is extremely loose preflop (limp-calls a lot), has been running hot (AA 3x among others), and has a rivalry going with the player to my left. We have no prior history as he is a very new player to the group.

Villain limps from HJ and I look at KK in the CO and raise to 2300. Folds around to Villain, who 3-bets to 5000. I've hardly seen any preflop 3-betting from this guy, and I've shown down mostly good hands tonight, so I doubt he's raising light in this spot. I think about shoving, but I don't want to give him a chance to fold TT-QQ here, and while I wasn't consciously picking up on anything, my gut is telling me not to shove. The limp-reraise probably had something to do with that. So after tanking for 20-30 seconds, I decide to 4-bet small and think about a fold if he goes over the top. I raise to 8300, and Villain snap-shoves.

I am convinced Villain has AA here. My plan worked, I know where I'm at, and I still have about 12bb left to claw back with. I tank again, the "what if's?" and "can I really fold?" all go through my head, but I have to follow the plan. So I open my mouth to fold, and somehow the word "Call" comes out. Hurr durr - Villain shows his aces and I'm out. I know people will say, "You can't fold KK with 20bb," but I was extremely disappointed in myself. I had a plan, I executed it, I learned what I needed to know, and I made the wrong decision anyway.

Last but not least, I had to remove a player from the invite list today. The guy is a decent player and a self-described former pro who claims to have supported himself playing low-stakes cash games for about a year. He's also super friendly at and away from the table, and he always throws me a few bucks at cashout to cover the beer that he drinks. Unfortunately, I caught him cheating last night during the post-tourney cash game.

He was dealing, and I had lead out with a large turn bet after he called my pre and post flop bets. I watched him riffle the deck repeatedly with his thumb while looking right at it - obviously trying to see the next card. I told him, "Please don't riffle the cards, you could see what's coming next." He stopped and almost immediately open-folded his flush draw (confirming both my read and what I thought he was doing). I was a little stunned and not really sure how to handle the situation, so I let the game keep going but started watching him more carefully than normal when he was dealing.

A few hands later, he checked out on the river, obviously on a draw that missed, and I took the pot and mucked without showing. He then flipped over a good portion of the muck, including what I thought was my hand. When I called him on it, he said he was doing it to show me his hand, but he flipped over a large pile of 6-8 cards which may have included my hand (I wasn't sure). A few minutes later he cashed out and went home.

I've never had a situation like this before, so I slept on it. I decided that I need to have a zero-tolerance policy for cheating, and I don't want to have to eagle-eye this guy every time he plays. I removed him from the invite list today.

[eneely]

You could ask for a separate RSVP for the game and for dinner, with the understanding that if they opt in for dinner, they will owe you the money. No backing out. Then you will know how much to make.

And for dis-inviting the sleezoid...no brainer.

[The Palimax]

Originally Posted by Schmendr1ck

A large group of people (6 of the 17 players) decided to opt out of dinner. I ask players to contribute $10 each for dinner, snacks and drinks, and one of the six gave me five bucks for drinks & snacks. Money wasn't an issue this time - I came in under budget and was able to almost break even from those who did pay. But I'm not sure how to handle this for future events. I had a ton of food left over, because I cooked generously for 18 and fed only 12. Any suggestions from those who have done this type of dinner event are welcome.

Simple.

You now have a baseline for what percentage of people are likely to partake in the pay-for-dinner portion of your evening. Plan accordingly. Budget for 2/3, and plan food for 3/4 or so.

You can always order a pizza if you're wrong.