Why do poker players go to illegal joints where they charge rake making it illegal. Why don't all the poker enthusiasts run rake free poker games....start something like a poker club and its completely rake free. The dealers will work in tips. The joint can make money by selling snacks, drinks etc.

Is it illegal to run rake free poker games. I am from Toronto and I play at few underground places but sick of their raking. They advertise 10% $10 max rake but they take up to $50 in rake in big hands when the hand goes to river with heavy action in each round. Its simple robbery. Nobody says anything, they just play.

There are home games (mostly totally legal) and then there are raked games played in sombodys home ( not legal mostly) that are not really home games. Then there are underground rooms , raked games, NOT in somebodys home. Not everyone lives in handy legal casino States so underground rooms thrive. Operators make a scad of money if they keep low profile and invest in a little "protection"!

Not a lawyer but the long-time understanding is: once you have dealers making money via tips it's an illegal game in most jurisdictions. Only the players themselves can exchange money.

See the recent "home poker not at home" thread. There are ways to do self-dealt, rake-free games in different types of venues.

The reason there are practically no daily or near-daily unraked games is that it costs money, as well as assumption of financial and possibly legal risks, to run such a game. This is not to even mention the time of the hosts and dealers, who would be essentially running the game as a full-time job. That's why a rake or seat charge is necessary to have a game that regularly.

You can't expect people to put so much energy and so many resources into something like that and just eat the costs. Think about it. Would you be willing to shoulder all of that at your own expense in time and money? Of course not. Also, you probably run a risk of violating some regulation or another by serving drinks and food anyway, so selling them is not a solution any more than rake is. You run afoul of Big Daddy Government either way, and rake is a simpler solution. (Dealing for tips suffers the same issue in a lot of places, BTW.)

A weekly/monthly/semi-regular home game can often shrug off these costs because it's only a little extra effort once in a while, like hosting a party. And there are plenty of such games in any major populated area where poker is played, if you sniff around. Put together enough of them on different days, and you'll have the option to play whenever you want.

I host some type of no fee / no rake / no nothing poker game ever week on average. There are costs, time and effort to running the games. I do it anyway because I enjoy the game and my tiny* collection of vintage poker chips need to have some purpose.

My weeknight game runs for 3-4 hours. I provide soft drinks and light snacks. It costs ~$15 to $20 to host this game plus an hour of time to set up and clean up.

My other games come with dinner, soft drinks and snacks. It costs $60 to $120 a night to host this game plus 3 to 5 hours to shop, cook, set up, clean up and wash up the dirty dishes.

My players do help out, either bringing something to add to the feast or tossing in a few bucks as they cash out. Even so, every game has to be funded out of my pocket.

Best guess is my wife and I put in over a hundred hours of work each year and spend several thousand dollars on supplies. We do it because it is fun, but that doesn't mean the costs are not there.

I know my game is not run to minimize costs. I play other games where the host does little and provides nothing, that can work too.

To the original poster - - - try setting up your own home game and become the host. Set a good example and maybe get a whole schedule of rake free home games running in your neighborhood.

DrStrange

* Ok, so maybe my vintage poker chip collection is not so tiny. I have over a dozen playable sets and thousands of single chips as well. But they still need a chance to get out and play, don't they?

Yeah our regular crew also pitches in a lot. A few do not. I live in a backward casino less state too far for a lot of regular trips to the good Indiana and Ohio venues. So we have a weekly home game for low stakes unraked , legal, friendly. Underground games abound around here , usually at higher stakes and much higher risks than I am comfortable with.

If someone offers a home game they deserve a little rake. They have to clean up their house afterwards, if something breaks they pay for it, have to have however many people at their house for sometimes a very long time which can suck sometimes if you as a host busted early. Lots of negatives with being a host. Inevitably someone is gonna spill beer in the couch or some ****. Some rake is only fair for a home game.

I have hosted a rake free home game for nearly 10 years ( weekly for the last 6 or so). Having a regular, safe, legal poker nite with a bunch of long time poker friends has NO negatives for me as a host. I think it depends totally on your crew and how well you are organized. How much they pitch in to help defray some expenses , help with clean up and such.

Hosts who want to charge some kind of seat charge to help with expenses don't bother me, but it does edge over the legality line a little. Raking pots in a home game is totally different. This is a business run in a home and NOT a home game. Again, if folks want to do that, I get it, But I don't want to go there for personal reasons.

Apologize for the derail here

The idea that some rake is fair for a home game host makes zero sense to me. If you host a dinner party do you say its far for the host to charge a little bit from the guests? No because thats not what hosting is about.

It is appropriate for a guests to bring a gift, or maybe help out by bringing something needed for the party, offer to help clean up after the event, and/ or to reciprocate by hosting an event.

Instead of rake, I get to only invite people I want in my home, I don't have to dodge raindrops and snowflakes to get to the game, and occasionally someone gives me a bottle of wine.

I assume that all of the hosts in this forum are the type who like hosting, otherwise we wouldn't be doing it for years. What we get from the game has nothing to do with a couple of dollars. I'll never go to DrStrange's level of feeding the horde, but I do like putting the kettle on and showing off my tea selection for the non-drinkers.

I host a home game at my place in Sydney that's been successful for a while now, this is how I get it to work with very little effort:

1. Run 6 handed mix with 15 games in the mix (No hold'em)
2. Have no more than 3 people waiting to join who can chill in the lounge watching sport or hang outside on the balcony.
3. Everyone who plays contributes $100 which in total buys:
a. A dealer for 6 - 8 hours
b. Good quality food (delivered)
c. Alcohol
d. Other snacks and supplies (delivered by the supermarket that morning)
e. Air Tasker Cleaner the next day

So all I have to do is find time to buy the alcohol ahead of the session, set up and manage people buying in/cashing out chips. Almost zero effort for a lot of fun and I am rarely out of pocket.

OP - Ask yourself why you haven't done this yourself. I bet the answer will be some combination of:

1. It takes a lot of time to do and some monetary outlay, especially to get it off and running.
2. It's hard to find enough people to consistently get a game going.
3. It's hard to find a place to host it. If you're in a city, most people probably don't have the room. Even if they do, most people don't want people in their house every night, or have a significant other and/or kids that make it more difficult. Hard to find a place to rent, and if you can it adds to the monetary outlay.
4. While you want a place to play poker, it's hard to do every night (or multiple nights a week).
5. May still be illegal anyway.

Rarely out of pocket? I would expect so.

With average of 7 players, that's $700 per night.

a. $100 seems generous--A dealer for 6 - 8 hours
b. 8 X $20 = $160--Good quality food (delivered)
c. 8 X $20= $160--Alcohol
d. $50--Other snacks and supplies (delivered by the supermarket that morning)

Total of $570.
e. Air Tasker Cleaner the next day

Dealer for night (assuming he also gets tips): $100 seems generous.


It seems to me $100 can by a lot more than what you are off

Try $30 per head for food and $40 per head for Alcohol and you are about there.

I run rake free poker, and as a result find the title of this thread to be inaccurate

I think one of you guys is using Aussie dollars and one American. Still, I wouldn't prefer to spend for all those amenities at a home game; I'd prefer a low budget affair where people deal themselves and bring their own snacks.

Yeah, in New York the standard underground card club rake seems to be:

1-2/1-3 - 10% up to $17 cap
2-5 - 10% up to $25 or $35 cap

Considering the games are all high action and often play with action-inducers like a rock, the cap is hit a LOT (maybe 30-40% of hands even?) and the dealers are all about speed.

On top of that the dealers seem to steal a ****load (at one game I ended up all in preflop with AA vs AA and we chopped and both somehow lost $10 when 2 other people had called a $15 pre raise, I don't play there any more) and at least tips in games I've seen have largely been pooled (I assume they get a % of the overall take for hours worked).

I reckon that on an average night this particular club was taking (including in dealer tips and dealer pilfering) around $400 an hour off each table, and they had 2 tables. That's a fair amount of money when there are only 6 people working there.

I assume that it's someone way more "serious" who actually runs the club and is nowhere near it who takes most of the take, of course.

They do provide "free" drinks though, I guess. At one of the 2-5 clubs they'll provide food too, but I'm sure it's a drop in the ocean.

Don't think you've ever been to Sydney if you think these prices are accurate.

I'm from London and live in New York and Sydney still ****ing shocked me when I was there.

^Okay, fair enough. Accusation withdrawn with apologies.

Also bear in mind that Aussies can drink properly unlike you wimpy Americans

Apology accepted.

Compliment accepted too!

Hi Bondi surfer this sounds awesome, do you spread cash games or just tournaments?

Just cash, makes it easier for people to come and go.