Talked to a home game buddy about a recent poker experience he had. He's a finance guy, but just a regular Joe not raking in millions (yet). We're used to playing games where a bad night is down $100+ and $200 is just awful (and unusual).

Seems that he got an invite to play from a guy he was friendly with. In a private lounge, with dealers, plus food and booze. Expecting a 2/5 game, he brought a couple bullets, planning to play tight and do more networking than playing. He's a good bet to drop at least $60 a night in our dealers choice almost poker night (see some of my other threads).

Well, off the bat, his friend introduces him to the guy running the game (not playing) and then let's him know he'll be in the outer lounge, as he doesn't play. Then the 2/5 table is full and he starts the 2nd table. Next thing, the host is asking how much guys are going to buy in for, and it seems that they are all starting with $2500, for the 10/25 game!!! He says he'll take what everyone else is taking, and the host writes it down and the game is on.


1. Privately, when questioned, the host explains that settling up is done at the end of the night, and if needed, payment can be made the following day via pickup at the office.

2. When asked about rake, I'm told they didn't take anything until a couple hours in, when they started raking a BB ($25) from some pots.
So raking a BB per pot at 10/25 seems excessive, but perhaps after a couple hours, a couple rebuys and only taking from the larger than small pots might work out to be reasonable?


3. Dealers provided, I didn't ask about tipping.


I was texting with him before he started, and chatted with him over the phone. I expressed concerns about playing above his head, and possibly winning worthless IOUs, or losing real $$$. He said he would play tight and try not to crap himself.



I can't imagine playing under those circumstances. Can you?

I'll followup with him about rake/tipping.

I'll followup with you all about his results and our next night post game discussion.


For those that play higher stakes and/or 'underground', does that seem standard?


I'm a 1/2 casino player, I'd consider playing a 2/5 game with guys, but am not sure how far up the ladder I'd go. I could fire couple bullets at 5/10, but would be sick if I had to. 10/25... my poker bankroll says no. I would be newly divorced losing a buy-in, newly divorced and in the hospital for losing more than a buy-in. A LOT would depend on circumstances and how I got into the game, before I'd jump up even to 2/5, much less higher.


How much higher than usual stakes would you play, if the circumstances were favorable? You know you are getting paid, comfortable that there are no shenanigans, and very beneficial to your professional career, or your life in general.

If I ever got invited to a game by someone who ends up not playing in the game, I'd leave in a heartbeat. Everything about it would seem fishy, and just not worth playing.

Normally, that would be my reaction. But this is good for business, and leaving could be very bad for business. I mention it, as it left him with a couple tables of complete strangers.

Also stick with 1-2 casino stakes (When I go). I have played 2-5 twice and both times I was really tight and uncomfortable. It was totally about the BR and not the skill level of the players. In our area (Ohio and Indiana Casinos) 2-5 players are mostly decent 1-2 players with a lot more money to put at risk. There are a few really good players scattered around too.

So when my economics improve ( as they will in a couple of years) , I plan on switching to 2-5 stakes as there are always games spread in the good rooms. Higher than that I just won't go.

The game you have described seems a bit scary to me. I guess it is not too out of line for some folks who can handle the stakes and rake , but it is not for me.

Oh my God - - No No NO!

Hero has no business playing here for a lot of reasons.

The stakes are too high. A normal night is +/- $100 and now Hero is sitting in a game where $100 is the opening raise. Hero is at risk of getting run over or being "ruined" in a single hand.

The game is being played on credit with strangers. This doesn't have to work out poorly but in a game with thousands of dollars on the line for each player, we don't need much imagination to see something going bad.

The rake is outrageous. $25 per hand is going to work out to something like $100 per hour for every person at the table.

Hero should fear the skill level of the villains. Of course it could be a table filled with wealthy doctors and trust fund babies who don't know a flush beats a straight - but I'd think not.

The faster Hero gets off this table the better. I don't care what the social implications are, this situation is wrong. I'd revisit the notion they guy who brought Hero to this game is any kind of buddy or business associate to be counted upon.

DrStrange

Isn't that odd? Did your friend know he doesn't play? Why is he there?


Man, he must have really wanted to network with these dudes.

So he's here at a game he knows little about, and this happens. How certain was he that these players would pay up?

So he could play for a couple of hours with no rake. That's good. But $25 is a huge rake. And what does "some pots" mean? That explanation is so vague as to be almost useless.

The most important part of this entire discussion is that he is a "finance" guy. This is the part that requires the most explanation. I'm in the construction industry and deal with projects that are always in the millions. Almost every successful contractor that I know has one or several people that have significant expense accounts ($100-300k yearly) and their job is make sure that the company's pump is always primed with new work. Going to a game and losing $100k a year could be an excellent business decision, although I don't know if that is the case here. Given your description of the game, I can't see what other reason that your friend would have for even playing.

I've played poker for at least 30 years. I don't think I've played NL higher than 1/3. Been tempted to take a 2/5 shot on occasion, but that's for another thread in another forum (LLSNL). I do keep hearing that the game is NOT really that much tougher, and I take with a grain of salt the comments that it's easier because there are less donkeys.

I don't know his personal finances, other than he's always appeared to be an 'average' guy, similar to me. Makes a decent living, has a wife with a much better paying job, and values having some laughs, smoking some cigars and playing poker. I think dropping a full-buy in would have meant paying them off the next day, and re-evaluating lunch/cigar options.


Exactly my reaction when I heard. Then the matter of how to make it not insulting, but getting the point clearly made.

For all I knew, he could have been a 10/25 casino player when we first met. We play much smaller stakes, and it's not like he could move up in stakes AND play with us.


Yes, I was skeptical of the level of trust placed in the hands of the host. I heard about some college games where IOUs were tossed around like the worthless scraps of paper they were. I did mention that there was a risk of getting freerolled, losing and having to pay, winning and getting a runaround. I was curious to see if anyone would chime in with "Sure, that's standard". So far.... NO.


As mentioned, there wasn't much talk about the rake. Knowing Hero, he could have seen a $25 come off, but missed the $20 going back on (or saw a $5 go off, thinking it was a $25). I'm also thinking (probably without good reason) that it might have been a BB comes off for each pot that reaches XX BBs. I know where they played, it's not the sort of place to allow their members to get fleeced outright.



Your first read my my first read. Turns out that I may have been wrong. It sounded like they were about the same skill levels as the players we usually play with, a few pretty good players, a few bad players, a few loose players, a few aggressive players, a few that just don't care at all about the money, and maybe a few that are just plain bad.


Once again, I agree with you. Hero played a few hours, made a lot of contacts, got a couple of emails waiting for him the next day. I'm really hoping it works out, mostly for my Hero's sake, but also for some of the fringe benefits that would come my way.

I don't think the guy who extended the invite was out to do harm. I'll at least give him the benefit of the doubt in finding a way to get Hero some connections.




My friend did not know. Its a private lounge, the non-player probably visits on a regular basis, there were plenty of people not playing. I don't know if he was still there when my friend left.

Yes, I think he did, and may also have recognized it as a chance to try something he might regret missing if he skipped it. He is a responsible guy, who claims to have been quite the wild child back in the day. He's been nothing but stand up since I've known him.

I think he was almost willing to get freerolled. An honest guy, who expects others to be honest. Not 100% certain. Here in Jersey, 100% certain doesn't really exist.

Sure, admittedly I didn't followup with him about rake or other dollars coming off the table. See prior answer, I don't know about frequency, amount or method to the rake collection.



It's my understanding that he was there on his own dime. I speculated with him about how sweet it would be to be bankrolled for the whole operation on the company's account. I'll agree that in some cases dropping 10k a month would be a worthwhile investment, but I don't think that's the case here.









I suspect that if he was in fact seated at the 2/5 table, he would have been much less nervous, and perhaps played differently. He would also have met different people. If I could hope, he'd return to the game, play the 2/5 or a tourney, continue to chat up the 10/25 guys, while not risking those amounts. As mentioned earlier, I'd really dig it if his company found a way to finance a few things (membership and his poker roll).

No, I'm not secretly Hero

How could the outer table be 10-25 with the mian table 2-5? Alarm bells going off where you don't have to put the cash up. Same with the 10-15 stakes, if your friend can't see the problem then I think he's beyond help here. Are you sure he wasn't pulling one over your head?

I don't like this one bit. It just seems shady. You show up expecting to play $2/$5, and then all of a sudden you're unwittingly seated at a table for five times the stakes and people are signing you up for a $2,500-per-person credit pool with a bunch of total strangers? Nuh-uh.

"Sorry, I didn't realize this was $10/$25. Can you put me on the list for $2/$5 please? Thanks."

I know playing on markers is common at higher stakes, but if it's standard to settle up at the end of the night, why run the whole game on credit anyway? Cash-in, cash-out. It's not like they're playing for millions. This reeks.

Especially in underground games, you gotta always ask about rake if there's nothing clearly posted. Yes, the host probably won't like it, and it may be better to pull him aside and ask privately, but this is information you should get right upfront.

Taking $25 per hand in this game would be insane, but this information seems like it's little more than anecdotal.

It doesn't just seem excessive; it is excessive. You should be paying dramatically less as a percent of the blinds to play significantly higher stakes. And I would never rebuy under these circumstances.

Clearly your friend is out of his comfort zone with this game and the stakes. I would advise him to play nit-tight and pay very close attention to the game—especially the dealer, the rake, and any other details that stand out. Plan to only stay a few hours at most. Expect to lose a few hundred, and do not rebuy.

No sir. I would feel like I'd been bait-and-switched into a very uncomfortable situation, and I probably never would have signed up for the initial buy-in. I'm a bit more defensive than most people when I start smelling fish, and this situation is fishy on a few different fronts off the bat.

I might take a shot at up to twice my usual stakes if there were some professional benefit and the game were very favorable. I would not play higher than than. I certainly wouldn't play $10/$25 if I had shown up expecting $2/$5, and especially not if the game made me feel as weird as this game would have.

He was shocked, and as mentioned, probably only a turn of a card away from soiling himself.
I don't know how many didn't have cash to cover, but there is something to be said for not having cash on the table.
Unsure if big winners had to wait to get paid, or if the host had cash to cover, that the host would take the chance to collect on the next day.

See above. I don't know if some players keep a 'bank' on file. If I were a regular, I'd probably let my winning grow. If I wasn't winning, I wouldn't be a regular at big stakes. I do keep playing in $50 and under home tourneys without a profit though

I think he might pay more attention to rake in the future. No reason to think this was over raked, but he's not a drinker and may subsidize the drinking of others. To a point, I'm OK with that.

Yeah, I realized later that a BB per half hour is only appropriate for much lower stakes.

Yes, he admits that. He did try to play nit-tight, against everything I've seen for the smaller stakes we play. He does play tourneys in AC and freely admits he is a much different player int hose.

I believe he cleared up the settling part before playing too many hands, as he wouldn't have been able to pay if he got fully felted. He felt that it was just a situation that happened, and he got seated at the bigger stakes table. I can't rule out the bigger players trying to force the smaller players into playing higher. I don't know if he was the only one out of his comfort zone.

This was the part I wanted to hear about. Twice as high. Yeah, I get that. Anyone rolled for a level, should be able to take a shot at double stakes for a good reason.

I expect most HP/2+2ers to advise staying away from these situations, and only take that shot under their control.



Short version:
Hero played about 3 1/2 hours before leaving. I don't think the game broke, he just had to go.
Down about a grand, he found pocket Kings UTG and ended up shoving and getting called on the AKxr flop. The other guy had JJ and Hero was showing a profit. Dropped a grand again and left down $400ish.

Here's my perspective from someone who actually plays in underground games:

Your friend's actions are the only thing weird about this situation. The game sounds fairly standard and often when a second table is forming, they'll make it different from the first if all the players are interested. This could be stakes, game, etc. Your friend should have spoken up before buying in.

For a game as big as a 10/25 it's very common to do it all on the books and settle up later. The very simple reason for this is that a game that big is a big threat of being robbed (people most likely come in for 5k-10k fairly regularly).

These games also have alot of people like the guy who referred your friend. Guys that are chummy with the game runner and are always around but don't play. This makes even more sense of this is a lounge.

As far as rake is concerned, he doesn't seem to have all the details, but $25 per half hour in an underground game is pretty reasonable. *2p2 attacks and says this can't be profitable* Many 1/3 underground games rake at least this much and can still be profitable.

As far as playing above the stakes you're "used to" that is a multifaceted question.
Do the higher stakes affect his ability to play optimally? In other words, is he afraid to lose the money?
Is losing the amount he's playing for going to take him out of action or make him unable to play the stakes he wants or pay his bills?
Is he just not skilled enough to play against the better players that he assumes will be at these stakes?
Basically, it depends on why he is playing low stakes now.

Hope this helped.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Thanks E Mo. Much appreciated. I plan to have a long chat the next time we get to sit for a cigar away from the rest of the crew, who is not aware of his exploits.

I suspect that most knew it would be higher, and to a man, everyone has said they would not have taken a seat at those stakes.

When I was able to put together the amounts of money at the table, and in the room, I understand not handling things with cash in/out to start. For this crowd, I suspect it's got something to do with the lounge keeping up appearances, or at least at the request of the knowing authorities.

If he returns, he won't play those stakes, but will have a better idea of which guys are regs and which are just occasional players. I'd probably be wary of them all, but suspect the regs are there socially and the occasional players are better.

Unsure if the 'runner' is official, gets any kickbacks or really thinks he was doing my friend a solid. He enjoys the scene, playing cards and did make what could be big contacts.

Still waiting for the sit down to get more rake details.

I think the stakes affected him, but by a strict BB accounting, did much better down 16BBs that he usually does at 50x lower stakes. I suspect losing a buy-in would have been very uncomfortable. This loss was no big deal, he was happy to 'pay' that to network/play. There is no regular high stakes action for him, although dropping a BI might have removed him from semi-regular status from our peanuts game. Paying bills is not in jeopardy. Dealing with the wife would likely be the biggest issue. He does continue to insist that the skill level isn't that much different than our regular games. Unfortunately, he doesn't beat those on a regular basis, but we've spoken privately and he is 100% about having fun and not interested in actually winning there.

Agree with everything E Mo said.

Though rare, I've seen players unable to pay at the end of the night and have been asked by hosts to take a marker at low stakes games, which would worry me a lot, but this is usually an issue with/for regs (the host won't usually accept markers from non-regs and won't ask someone to take a marker unless he's sure the guy understands how the games work and will likely not be scared off by it). I've never had this happen in a big game, but I've heard of it.

My big issue is the stakes. I'm generally a 1/3-2/5 player, and I wouldn't go over 5/10.

As for skill, I haven't seen a huge difference in home/underground games from .5/1 up to the 2/5 level. I've never played bigger outside a casino, but in my understanding these games among finance guys are bigger mostly to show-off, and really don't play any better than say 2/5 at a casino. At a casino, the graduation is much faster, as the number of pros/semi-pros go up a lot, especially at 5/10. I hear that a lot of rich recs play 10/25 and fewer pros because they don't have the BR for it, but I can't confirm or deny, because I also don't have the BR for it, and would likely be super scared money if I tried it.

Thanks Garick.

I'll be sure to check to see at what stakes level he would have loosened back up to 'standard nit'. I'm also curious to know if he would have played higher.

Risk of Ruin comes to mind. I think people who play those higher (10/25 +) stakes must still have an 'uncomfortable' zone. They can't all be billionaires.

Another brief convo with Hero, who has not yet returned to fight.

There are at least a few 'regular' games that run on different nights.
For night A, the suggestion was to 'bring' 3-5k, so I'm figuring that's either a BI for 10/25, or a couple bullets for 5/10.
For night B, it's PLO, and what sounded like 10k min.
For night C, there is a $500 tourney.
No mention of night D, an actual 2/5 game.

Hero and I chatted about how cool it must be to rake in a pot that's more than a usual paycheck, and how awful it would be to drop 2 - 10x our usual casino BI.

No interest from Hero (or myself) in playing A or B. I could be talked into joining him for C, or D (if it actually exists).

Re: D. There does not seem to be an actual 2/5 game. It's possible that the original invite was for a 5/10 game with miscommunication.

I've not yet had a chance to really sit down with Hero, as it's a semi-private convo between Hero and I (and 2+2 where nobody else goes). I suppose it's possible that after years of mentioning these forums, someone will join/read. I'm hoping to meetup, hang, chat with Hero for more details at some point.

I did ask again about rake. I was told that no rake was noticed early, and an announcement was made towards the end of his night, that pots were going to be raked for food. Dealers provided, and were at least occasionally tipped. There has to be something in it for the organizer(s). I just don't know how they are getting the money.