home poker nights and their problems - Page 2 - Home Poker Games

southern_sid · 04-19-2012, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathbenotproud

hey 2+2. i've been a lurker here for a while, never registered until now though. oh well.

on to the questions I have!

for starters, I am 21. i'm a poker dealer in a casino in Ohio.

I have been trying to get some home games going, but am running into some issues with people who are friends of friends, etc., that are unfamiliar with rakes (cash games), and general fees taken from a total buy-in (tournament) to support the host. I supply drinks, food, location, table, chips, and my overall expertise in poker, but some people have a hard time wrapping their head around the concept of a $20, $30, whatever the buy-in is is irrelevant, but that not all 100% of the buy-in goes towards the total prize pool.

I explain to them that it is to cover the cost of the table (which I home built, so materials, etc.), the food, the drinks, etc. while most of them, after being told this, are more acceptable of the idea, they tend to not be repeat customers, basically.

I am not skating over the explanation of things, nor do I attempt to be shady. I make it very clear that I 'garnish' I guess is an appropriate term, some of the money to help cover things. I also make sure that the people bringing their friends are aware of this system.

are there any suggestions as to ways I can present the idea without people being so apprehensive of the concept? keep in mind the age group, and that these people are not avid poker players. some are, and they are usually aware of the system, but the people who are not are thinking i'm simply trying to make a quick and easy buck cause i'm not actually playing.

I will give some examples of how I run a rake, and taking money from buy-ins:

for cash games I have a minimum buy-in 10x BB, which is how it is in a casino, typically. so that is usually dependent on what people want to play. other times there will be a cheap night, but that doesn't really matter. i'll do a $10 game for simplicity's sake. my chip setup has some quarters and dollars. I will normally do a 10% progressive rake up to 6x the minimum bet. if it were dollars, basically I stop at $6.00 no matter how much above $60 it gets. so in a game with quarters, it's basically a maximum of $1.50. not a lot.

for cash games, would it be simpler to just ask for a small flat fee from people as opposed to continually taking money? I usually have 8-12 people at my table. it's pretty large.

when it comes to tournaments, if it's a cheapskate night of like $10, $15, $20, i'll normally only take like 3 bucks from each buy-in. for games that are $30, $40, $50, and up, I normally do a dealer's bonus and just take that, and people don't object to this hardly ever. but typically I take between 3-5 from the buy-in.

is this unreasonable? also, on the rake, the bigger games I do 10%, and on some cheap games i'll do 5%. it also depends on if I am taking money from a bunch of people who I have no acquaintance to, vs people I have known for a decent amount of time.

some of my numbers might be off and/or not make sense, I am speed typing this after having got off work. let me know if you would like anything to be cleared up.

Jeez.

My home game is alot more relaxed.

Bring you own snacks n drinks, if the host does do a spead of food and drinks (we'll get an email in the week before), we just chuck what ever it cost him, no set fee.

Regimental home games sound horrendous.

getya45 · 04-19-2012, 08:23 AM

OP I would put out a donation box as mentioned already. I am not a fan of raked home games as it something I just do not expect to have. I would make sure the fish are and repeat customers, that way you will have your money back in no time.

JerrysWorld · 04-19-2012, 09:08 AM

Why would you host a game, not play in the game, and yet still not profit from it. Don't you deal cards al day at work? Why go home to do the same thing, supposedly for free?

deathbenotproud · 04-19-2012, 09:18 AM

40-60% of the people who come to the game are my personal friends, the rest are people they bring. I do not invite anyone at all that I do not know. it is the people who I do not know who usually have an issue paying for food and drink. I do not know why everyone is turning this into everything other than what I have clearly stated what it is: a means to cover expenses. if one of my friends win, they usually throw me money, but it is not always the case. people are still commenting on the rake, when I clearly said that I stopped at the cost of expenses, and that if I am ever over surplus it goes towards the next game, or supplies i.e new chips/cards.

@JerrysWorld: and i'm not profiting from the game because i'm not hosting an underground den for-profit game. i'm simply having fun with my friends and the people they bring on nights off from work. I don't like to drink alone

i'm just going to be more transparent about donations. i'm gonna put a box out and attempt to make it more clear that it is for covering expenses.

it's obvious that people do not read every post before commenting, so i'm done participating in this discussion unless I see someone who makes a post having read certain critical details prevalent to my query.

**Schmendr1ck** · 04-19-2012, 09:52 AM

OP,

You sound a little butthurt, but think about why people in this thread were suspicious. Your first post talked about a game where you rake and host but do not play, and while your tourney rakes sound low, you also outlined a cash game rake that will take a lot of money off the table. This screams underground club game, so it should be unsurprising that many people in this thread took it that way.

On top of that, your motivations for hosting were unclear. Hosting a poker game requires some work, and those of us who do it regularly usually have similar motivations: we like to play poker and/or we are good enough to make a regular profit from the game. "I like to host but I don't play" is something that we just don't hear very often, and this was another red flag that you were running a raked-for-profit game.

It sounds like you've got the right idea now. If you host for the social aspect but don't play, and you just want to cover consumables like food & drink, then a donation box is probably the best way to go. Most players are happy to pay a few bucks to cover your costs, and they shouldn't mind if you suggest a reasonable per-player amount.

But I'd stay away from raking cash games. Even if you shut it down after a while, it gives the impression that you're running the game for profit.

The Big K · 04-19-2012, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathbenotproud

people are still commenting on the rake, when I clearly said that I stopped at the cost of expenses, and that if I am ever over surplus it goes towards the next game, or supplies i.e new chips/cards.

Your whole OP was about rake so of course we are commenting on it. But I guess you are really upset that we not giving advice on how to get people to accept a rake, yes? Not going to happen in this forum. The majority of us here believe in non-rake home games. If you are stopping at the cost of expenses (and your set-up, card, chips, table(s), etc are not expenses by the way. They are your assets to host a "non-profit" game and you should not be trying to recoup their cost. There is no reason I should have to help you buy these things.), why would you ever have a surplus? And if you have a surplus, guess what, you are making a profit. The law won't care if it is used in the future to cover expenses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathbenotproud

it's obvious that people do not read every post before commenting, so i'm done participating in this discussion unless I see someone who makes a post having read certain critical details prevalent to my query.

I read everything but I'm not interested in helping you run a business. Come back if you decide to run a real home game.

deathbenotproud · 04-19-2012, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmendr1ck

OP,

You sound a little butthurt, but think about why people in this thread were suspicious. Your first post talked about a game where you rake and host but do not play, and while your tourney rakes sound low, you also outlined a cash game rake that will take a lot of money off the table. This screams underground club game, so it should be unsurprising that many people in this thread took it that way.

On top of that, your motivations for hosting were unclear. Hosting a poker game requires some work, and those of us who do it regularly usually have similar motivations: we like to play poker and/or we are good enough to make a regular profit from the game. "I like to host but I don't play" is something that we just don't hear very often, and this was another red flag that you were running a raked-for-profit game.

It sounds like you've got the right idea now. If you host for the social aspect but don't play, and you just want to cover consumables like food & drink, then a donation box is probably the best way to go. Most players are happy to pay a few bucks to cover your costs, and they shouldn't mind if you suggest a reasonable per-player amount.

But I'd stay away from raking cash games. Even if you shut it down after a while, it gives the impression that you're running the game for profit.

I completely understand. and I am only upset at myself for posting that after work and not being entirely clear on some matters. I made it clear in another post that I actually haven't even run a cash game yet. the motive was, at the time, to do that (instead of a flat fee) up to the cost of food and drink, and then I would cut it off. I just didn't edit my original post because I figured people would read the later discussion and its developments. i'm not upset at anyone else except for blatant comments directly opposing points I made in other posts that should have made whatever I had originally posted null about whatever point I had made.

I just wanted to use the rake as a method of collecting up to the cost of expenses. not the entire evening. that'd be ridiculous.

yes, I am just participating for the social aspect. thank you for your input, as a donations box is what I have decided to do.

edit: also, I was/am unable to edit my original post for some reason. I think there's a time cut-off as to when one is allowed and no longer allowed to edit the original post? not sure, but I can't edit anything other than this post (my last active post).

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big K

Your whole OP was about rake so of course we are commenting on it. But I guess you are really upset that we not giving advice on how to get people to accept a rake, yes? Not going to happen in this forum. The majority of us here believe non-rake home games. If you are stopping at the cost of expenses (and your set-up, card, chips, table(s), etc are not expenses by the way. They are your assets to host a "non-profit" game and you should not be trying to recoup their cost. There is no reason I should have to help you buy these things.), why would you ever have a surplus? And if you have a surplus, guess what, you are making a profit. The law won't care if it is used in the future to cover expenses.

I read everything but I'm not interested in helping you run a business. Come back if you decide to run a real home game.

you obviously didn't read a thing. I never labeled chips/cards as expenses. I said if I have a surplus, it goes to food/drink, OR those things in rare cases, as I already have chips and cards.

I also said that the rake was ONLY up until a certain point to cover the expeneses, i.e. food/drink.

and why would I have a surplus? I already said if a friend won, they threw me some money.

see this post here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...71&postcount=8 my first response
and this post here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...93&postcount=9 the one posted minutes after

I made it very clear from the first response that what I had said was an inaccurate depiction of what I was trying to achieve, and I then made it clear that I was sorry for not having been so clear in my OP.

you clearly read my other posts considering everything you said was incorrectly taken out of context. come back when you can do what you claim to have done.

Bene Gesserit · 04-19-2012, 10:26 AM

Been running a home game for several years. I have experience here and some opinions based on what works and what does not. In Kentucky we have legal "social gaming", no admission/seat fees, no pot raking, no anything for the host to make money on. The host can only make money from the games just like the invited players. However, donations for expenses are accepted but not required. I tell every new player this situation , and believe me the players often bring beer and sodas, chips, pizzas and other stuff ALL THE TIME. Also often a player will simply add a buck or two from his payout to the "bank" box to help out with expenses. It's all voluntary and all totally legal! We have a possible player base of about thirty , but seldom have more than 10 or 12 any given friday! It is kind of a weekly party atmosphere, a .25-.50 NLH cash game with several props 7-2 winner, Small BBJ ( each pot over $5 donates .25), Best Hand of the night, running it twice and anything else we can steal from TV. In other words it's a poker party where you can win a tidy little sum or lose a few bills and have a good time. You will have to do whatever you want of course, but I hope our model gives you some ideas! GL to you sir! PS better check Ohio rules on homegames just to be on the safe side, here in Ky we can get busted for fighting, or too much noise , but not for poker if we follow the rules! Also be carefull about minors and liability here!

The Big K · 04-19-2012, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathbenotproud

you obviously didn't read a thing. I never labeled chips/cards as expenses. I said if I have a surplus, it goes to food/drink, OR those things in rare cases, as I already have chips and cards.

So you didn't say the bold part???????

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathbenotproud

when I clearly said that I stopped at the cost of expenses, and that if I am ever over surplus it goes towards the next game, or supplies i.e new chips/cards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathbenotproud

and why would I have a surplus? I already said if a friend won, they threw me some money.

Then give it back. How hard is it to say to him, "Thanks, but I've already covered expenses."? And I assume you are also contributing for the food and drinks you are consuming, yes?

deathbenotproud · 04-19-2012, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit

Been running a home game for several years. I have experience here and some opinions based on what works and what does not. In Kentucky we have legal "social gaming", no admission/seat fees, no pot raking, no anything for the host to make money on. The host can only make money from the games just like the invited players. However, donations for expenses are accepted but not required. I tell every new player this situation , and believe me the players often bring beer and sodas, chips, pizzas and other stuff ALL THE TIME. Also often a player will simply add a buck or two from his payout to the "bank" box to help out with expenses. It's all voluntary and all totally legal! We have a possible player base of about thirty , but seldom have more than 10 or 12 any given friday! It is kind of a weekly party atmosphere, a .25-.50 NLH cash game with several props 7-2 winner, Small BBJ ( each pot over $5 donates .25), Best Hand of the night, running it twice and anything else we can steal from TV. In other words it's a poker party where you can win a tidy little sum or lose a few bills and have a good time. You will have to do whatever you want of course, but I hope our model gives you some ideas! GL to you sir! PS better check Ohio rules on homegames just to be on the safe side, here in Ky we can get busted for fighting, or too much noise , but not for poker if we follow the rules! Also be carefull about minors and liability here!

ah thank you

and yes, I always look for minors. I don't allow anyone that isn't 21 to drink. they can if they go out into their car and don't plan on coming back in, but you are not going to be in my house and be breathalized if you are a minor lol. I have my friends keep an eye out too so nothing goes wrong. we're a really tame group, never too noisy. that, and, well, two of my friends here are MMA fighters with their trophies on a mantel for visibility, and a couple other of my friends are rather big guys

would deter most fighting. though we have never had an incident that would even warrant a fight. we're all really relaxed. not to say it won't ever happen, just that it hasn't yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big K

So you didn't say the bold part???????

Then give it back. How hard is it to say to him, "Thanks, but I've already covered expenses."? And I assume you are also contributing for the food and drinks you are consuming, yes?

my apologies for not spelling everything out. I figured it was implied that cards/chips wouldn't have to be purchased every single night we do this because they aren't exactly made of fragile materials. how often do you purchase cards or chips?

and I am the one that pays for all of the food and drinks. of course I don't take more than to cover my share of it. why would I pay ten and take ten back when I had $2.00 worth? i'm not a freakin jackass like that.

to be clear, because I know you would bring up the $10.00 like that's an exact figure for the costs.. it usually ends up being $30-$40. $10 was an example.

as for giving it back, they do it as a tip to me. it isn't anything more than like $5 bucks, IF that at all. i've told them in the past it isn't necessary, but hey, friends are nice people.

i'm sorry. you can nitpick me all you want about how clear I was about paying for chips/cards. but you still didn't read anything at all. and you are still arguing over a point I made invalid by 100% of my posts in this thread regarding the intentions of a rake. I only meant for the "rake" to be the "method" of "collection" as it smoothly fits into a game to pull the slot and push the dot, as it were. I am not LITERALLY "raking" though I am, I am NOT doing it as a normal "rake to the house." it was to be an alternative to asking for a flat fee for cash games.

deathbenotproud · 04-19-2012, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit

PS better check Ohio rules on homegames just to be on the safe side, here in Ky we can get busted for fighting, or too much noise , but not for poker if we follow the rules! Also be carefull about minors and liability here!

I also wanted to point out that I live in Michigan, and home games are legal as long as the house doesn't rake, and the only people making money are the players. I just confirmed the details, as I only knew that it was legal, but not under what conditions. I only work in Ohio. it's only an hour drive

Bene Gesserit · 04-19-2012, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathbenotproud

I also wanted to point out that I live in Michigan, and home games are legal as long as the house doesn't rake, and the only people making money are the players. I just confirmed the details, as I only knew that it was legal, but not under what conditions. I only work in Ohio. it's only an hour drive

Yeah, cool, sounds like our situation in KY, it's actully in the State Constitution I think LOL

**The Palimax** · 04-19-2012, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathbenotproud

you're right. i'll tell someone that you deal to the small blind and start the action under the gun. he'll be my new dealer. then when they have a question like"A bet 30. B bet 60, and C raised to 75. can he do that?" I won't tell him whether he can or not. knowing the rules and nuances of poker. what a joke. it's totally overrated.

Please come to my house, as we'd love to play poker; and your illustration demonstrates why us normal people are incapable of doing it ourselves.

Here's the deal. If you want to run a casino in your house, rake your customers and make money -- go ahead. We'll support you. Be honest about it, at least.

...but if you just want to get a home poker game going without eating the cost of Cokes and Pabst every night, then find a fair way to take expenses for CONSUMABLES only from your players. Unless you're selling them the poker table that YOU KEEP when they leave, they shouldn't be paying for your property, your chips, your rent, your air conditioning.

Or, if you want to deal poker in home games to supplement your income as a casino dealer -- find someone who wants to pay you, not just assume your friends are too stupid to figure out a re-raise.

It's insulting.

DavidNB · 04-19-2012, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathbenotproud

I also wanted to point out that I live in Michigan, and home games are legal as long as the house doesn't rake, and the only people making money are the players. I just confirmed the details, as I only knew that it was legal, but not under what conditions. I only work in Ohio. it's only an hour drive

So that makes your game illegal since you rake?

Anyways, why don t you host for the fun of it. Forget the jar, forget the cut from buyins, just host. Tell everyone its BYOB and encouarge players to bring a bag of food. Use your know how to teach the other players the game. Basicly one or two games should be lots to show how it is down

pfapfap · 04-19-2012, 07:37 PM

Without a strong player base, you can't hit the ground running like this. The fee is something you gradually work in. I'm not against such a thing, if it's going directly to the games. Were I a rich man, though, I'd just cover it all as the cost of throwing a good party. I can understand the desire to turn a profit, but that's not what this is for. If that's your goal, then you're in the wrong place.

But still, you can't slam them with this off the bat. Gain their respect, then they'll be willing to contribute. And make it voluntary. Tournament buyin is whatever plus "and if you'd like to contribute to the food fund, $X is the suggested donation, thanks."