Home game, 1/2NL, $5 straddle, 1 limper, gets around to the button who makes it 21 to go. Small blind folds, big blind shoves for $35 all in. Original straddle folds, limper completes to 35, button wants to reraise and then the poop hits the fan on whether or not the pot can be reraised. If he can not reraise, then what is the minimum amount he needs to reopen the betting. Opinions would be apreciated. Thanks.

The re raise needed to be $16+. He can only call.

It depends on house rules on what constitutes a legal raise to re-open bidding.

The normal no-limit rule for a legal raise is equal to or greater than the previous raise. Therefore 5-21-35, the 35 is not "legal" as it is only a raise of $14 and the previous raise was $16.

Some places and home games use the 1/2 raise rule which really is more of a limit rule. In this scenario, $14 > 0.5*$16 would be a legal raise to re-open betting.

For a raise to be complete, and reopen betting, it must equal the size of the previous raise or bet. In this case button bet $21 for a $16 raise over the $5 straddle. To be a complete raise by the BB he must bet a minimum of $37, 21 +16. Since his bet is not a complete raise it does not reopen the betting.

From Roberts Rules of Poker, Section 14 -

3. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 300. A player who has already acted and is not facing a fullsize wager may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the minimum bet or less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)

I understand this rule but from reading this thread now I thought of something.

If RROP didn't have the example in that section, one could read that to mean the all-in is a raise. Reading up to the word "Example" it describes what a valid raise must be except for an all-in wager. I take that to mean the all-in person made a non-standard raise and it counts as a raise according to the exception. The example, however, clarifies it.

The actions are call raise or fold. He obviously didn't call or fold, so what else is it? Why is the all-in allowed to put more chips in but no one after can?

Just thinking out loud. Tell me my flaws here.

As a player with enough chips to make a complete raise you cannot make an incomplete one. Your bet is not valid and will need to be corrected - either up to the completed raise amount or down to just a call.

Ex. Bet is $20 and I have $50 in front of me. Call is $20. Legal minimum raise is $40. I cannot bet $35 as this amount isn't allowed by me. It either gets ruled a call and goes dwon to $20 or ruled a raise and I must bring the bet up to the minimum by adding $5 more.

Now If I only had $35 I would be allowed to bet that amount by going all in. You can call it a raise if you like as it does increase the amount subsequent players must act on, but it does not reopen the action to players that have already acted

I understand minimum raise amounts. I'm just stating that under the rules it sounds like that would be a raise under that exact condition only. Therefore subsequent players should be allowed to re-raise.

I guess there's really 4 actions: call, fold, raise, all-in

Or maybe 5 actions: all with min raise lmit met

The first part of that section of RRoP is talking about the all-in raise being the exception, not the raises behind an all-in bet. It's stating that the all-in raise doesn't have to be equal or greater than the size of the previous bet, because in some cases it can't be.

The all in is a raise. It just doesn't reopen betting to those that have already acted.

Sorry if I'm still not understanding your point......

I guess in simplest terms I'm asking "why can't I re-raise?" Not because the rule says so but what is the purpose of that restriction?

Wait, so it is a raise. So if I'm facing a raise I should be able to re-raise.

RROP

All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager

See, w/o the "example" it says nothing about reopening.

The not enough to re-raise part shouldn't be part of an example. It should be explicitly stated w/o an example.

W/o that example there it could be interpreted as I mentioned. That was really my point, I guess.

Like I said earlier, just thinking out loud.

Its the same as "why I can only drive 55mph on the highway at 5pm rush hour, and at 3am when there is noone on the road!" Its a rule, it sucks, but that's the rule. It has more to do with the end of a tournament, where stacks are generally low, and typically none of the stacks could constitute enough to make full raises.

You bold the part that you like....but leave the rest off????

I think the only answer is because the rule says so. The rule says for a raise to be legal it must meet certain criteria. If it doesn't then it's not a legal raise. And if you have already acted and have not been (legally) raised then you cannot reraise

I see the exception as allowing the all in player to make a wager that otherwise would not be allowed. Without the exception a player with less than the legal raise amount would only be able to call.

If you want to play in a game where any amount of wager over the original bet amount is considered a legal raise be prepared for a lot of very small raises constantly reopening the betting. I think the rule is in place to set a standard for bet sizing. If you host a home game You could set up a different rule if you like. Say a 50% rule - where if an all in players raise is at least 50% of a legal raise it reopens the betting. I think it becomes confusing having seperate rules for all in players and players still having chips.

The all-in isn't a raise. It is action.

Lets look at it like this

"All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round,..."

Bet is $20 and you have $35...What actions are open to you according to that rule? Fold or call...you cannot raise as you don't have enough according to the rule.

Now we add in...."except for an all-in wager". Now you're allowed to bet all $35 because we made an exception for you.

I loosely call it a raise because for players yet to act it increases the action to them. Bet was $20, you're all in for $35. Next player (who hasn't acted yet ) can still raise. His min raise amount is going to be $20 on top of the amount he has to call - which is $35. THis makes his min raise bet $55. Without the all in it would have only be $40