My hand histories are all from long running home games normally where I am the host. We have lots of table hours together and the games don't run like casino games at all. I post them in the home poker because that is where I think they belong.

We are playing $1/$1 live, nine handed. (actually 18 players over two tables.) We are about half way through the session. There are big winners and big losers which has caused the game to play larger than normal. The mood on Hero's table is sweet. The other table is sullen and angry - I suspect I might have some "hosting" work to do if the problem persists.

Cast of characters:

The small blind is low skilled LAG playing $60. He has been spewing money all night trying to make hero calls and trying to bluff people off pots. It hasn't been working.

Hero is in the big blind with $250. Hero has a nitty reputation for hand selection but is happy to play for stacks when he plays. This leads to getting a lot of action from people looking to gamble.

In early position we have the Hawk playing $225. Loose, passive, tricky trappy. He tends to be about a street behind when being aggressive, even if the board has evolved enough the degrade the value of his hand. Rarely bluffs, his deception is mostly rooted in slow playing.

In middle position we have an odd duck playing $125. This player's style changes with his stack size and investment in the game. The shorter his stack, the tighter he plays. Or the deeper he is, the looser and more aggressive he is. Either way, he isn't very skillful. For this hand, let's say he is loose but not too aggressive.

The Cougar is the CO playing $450. Passive, loose, tricky trappy. This player would much rather win less but get to spring a trap than play "normal" poker. He likes the "free card" play - so he often bets / three-bets in position post flop with drawing hands and then checks behind on the turn if the draw misses.

The hand:

The four listed villains limp for a dollar each. Hero looks down at T 4 and checks his option. If someone wants to raise preflop, say so. But be aware these villains aren't going to fold easily - Hero could make it $10 to go and end up with a couple of callers.

The flop is 4 4 J There is $5 in the pot with five players contesting for it.

The small blind checks, bringing the action to Hero. Bet or check? If betting, how much?

Definitely no pre flop raise for me , out of position with T4os. I also hate slow playing, so no checking, with trip 4s I bet out $4. I prefer even numbers. With this group I would not be surprised with four calls or four folds.

Def betting out. You have two LPs to act, give them a chance to make bad calls. How are flop overbets seen in this game? In my old 1/1 game, they didn't seem to notice, and it makes the geometric progression of the pot much nicer. I go about $7 and expect a call from all Js, and most PPs 55-TT.

You might want to cross-post this to LLSNL. You'll get a lot more responses

I'm checking this preflop.


I suppose the book counts this one as WA/WB (way ahead or way behind) and advises checking, as the only callers are ones that beat you.

At this table, I think you should be betting whatever is 'standard', I'm guessing that tossing a $5 chip will get a few callers.

I'm not quite ready to go broke in this limped pot... as I expect thinking players to have better than trips with a decent kicker. But I'm happy to extract value from AJ+. I don't expect to see big pocket pairs in this limped pot.. but you know the players better.

The villains are generally sticky. I could see any hand 55+, J2+ calling one bet. No doubt there will be exceptions both ways.

I think hero could get callers if he tried betting more than $5, but he didn't try. . . .

*** The turn ***

Hero bets $5 and gets two callers - Hawk and The Cougar, both passive tricky-trappy style players.

There is $20 in the pot and three players left. Hero holds T 4

Turn is < 4 4 J > 3

Hero is first to act. Bet or check? If betting, how much?

No need to slow down here IMHO. A check here allows check backs from passive players and keeps the pot too small. Don't think serious draws are likely. Also not wise to bet too much so you lose both of them maybe. So I bet out $15 and hope for at least one caller. Also really hope I am not dealing with a trapper with JJ , but that's really mostly just a monster in the closet.

Lead out for $10-15.

If the Hawk was slow playing, he'll repop you here based on the description you gave. Given the lack of a raise pre-flop, you're likely looking at any Jack, another 4, and the very outside chance of a made boat. Given there were no draws on the flop, it's likely the Cougar either has a jack or a mid-pair to not have raised pre-flop.

Sure, there's the remote possibility that one of them has J/J and was trying to be very tricky pre-flop and hit gin on the flop. If they do, it sucks, but I don't see myself getting away from 3 4s here.

The other possible option is checking and relegating myself to check-calling to the River.

Hawk flopping a set of Js over our trip 4s is mathematically a possibility of course, but way , way too small a chance, IMHO, to play our hand afraid of it and lose value by checking and not taking an agressive line. At least that's how I play when I decide I have a stronger hand. Sure would hate poker if another J hits on the river.

There are a lot more hands that the villains can call with than beat hero. The question to ponder is how big a bet will someone with J8 call? How about pairs between jacks and fours? The bulk of the range seems to be top pair hands with kickers ranging all over the place. Jack-two is absolutely in both villains' range.

With $35 in the pot, I'll fire another $20-35 here.

Based on the trappy nature, I'll be wary of getting raised. Based on the passivity, I think it might get checked around. I don't want to lose value. If raised, I'll re-consider options.

Even filling up, I'm not crazy about getting stacks in.

Quads on the river, and I'll be glad to extract value.

There is $20 in the pot at the moment.

Hero should proceed carefully if the hand starts to blow up into a major confrontation. These villains aren't LAGtards - if they wake up wanting to play for big amounts, Hero often is going to have a problem.

DrStrange

PS, I try to post threads with a range of situations, ones where I think I made mistake(s) or ones where I had a difficult time at the table. Don't expect bad beats, brags or other such hands unless there was a different reason to discuss the hand.

So far this seems a pretty straight forward hand. Really good flop for a lousy pre flop holding T4os. Passive responses to moderately agressive play by hero. The nature of Vs (trappers) give pause to me (Hero) depending on future action by them. But slow playing and checking is not my nature nor do I think it will enhance the value earned by a pretty strong hand. I consider a bad beat or major suck out very remote in this hand , but always have to keep that in mind due to a bit of poker paranoia I continue to have. I (hero ) am certainly not committed, but fairly confident. Further descisions depend on reactions to hero betting out.

Whoops... for some reason I misread that as $20 in the pot and then 3 x $5 more.

OK. I'm still firing. If I get raised, I'm probably behind by a lot, and have no problem folding.

I can see a reason to check (pot control) and see if the passive, trappy players come alive. My reason for not checking is a new development in my own style, betting the turn when people still have draws. It was after a discussion with a friend, and it does make sense that people will pay on the turn, but not after missing the river.

Do we plan to out trap the trappers? I think not.

*** The River ***

Hero bets $10 and gets two calls. There is $50 in the pot and three players left. Hero holds T 4

River is < 4 4 J > 3 6

Hero is first to act. Bet or check? If betting, how much?

Late to the party. I like the way hero has played so far. I don't mind checking the flop, but since we got callers, betting out was great.

Yeah, of course we don't the nuts, and haven't since the start of the hand, but we are so far ahead of the range we don't care and have to accept that there are some coolers out there.

My chief concern is that on a limped preflop, everyone must realize that a lousy hand like T4 could be in the hand. Yet they call, call, call. A little worrisome, I'll admit, especially with two opponents. I don't see these foes folding a hand with a J, but what does the other player have? I'm not thrilled, especially with your image.

But it's too strong of a hand to not bet. So bet 35+ and let's see what we get. I'm thinking there is a jack in someone's hand, and maybe a small pair. If someone has J4, 33 or 66, oh well. I would expect JJ to bet preflop, but maybe not one of those tricky players.

It doesn't matter, though, does it? In the long run, we are well ahead of the likely field of hands, and anything that beats us is just poker.

I bet out $ 30 and hope they both have a big pair (or two pair) and call. If the Vs have some hand that beats us already or sucked out something then so be it. I would not play the hand differently than I (hero) did. Of course the hand is not over yet. Vs have yet to act on heros lead. Hero has rep of playing strong when he chooses to play a hand. This might limit the Vs bluffing on the river.

Tricky - trappy loose passive players do not commonly call all the way down to the river then raise with a bluff. Not to say it is impossible, but I would say unlikely / out of character to bluff there.

Agree with this. The nature of the Vs and the image of the Hero together as somebody who is sticky when he has a strong hand make bluffing more unlikely.

I agree, too. At this point we could check/call, but we potentially give up some value if we're checked back.

Are they the type to bluff if we check? It seems like the wrong play against this hero, but if so makes for another way to get value, but also another opportunity to lose our stacks if we're wrong.

A reraise would look very strong to us, and we'll have to make that decision if is comes to it. But betting out gives us the two benefits of getting the value we want against lesser hands and letting us know where we are if we are raised.

If you remove bluff-raises from their game, then you can safely bet - fold.

If not, you probably go to check - call instead.


I'm betting the river. Probably calling a small raise, folding to a large one.

The trappy Vs are taking a long time to respond to our river bet. Think long, think wrong OK??

*** almost done ***

Hero bets $15, Hawk calls and The Cougar min-raises to $30. Hero owes $15 to call, the pot is $120. Hawk is left to act though his table manner and talk seems like he is inclined to fold.

Should Hero fold, call or raise? If raising how much? If calling, what amount would The Cougar need to bet to make Hero fold his hand?

Hero holds T 4 The board is < 4 4 J > 3 6

I am saving Hero's commentary, thoughts and plans till the end.

I decide not to risk much more and take down a decent pot OR lose a moderate one , I just call the extra $15. Hope the Hawk does the same . The Cougars raise seems weak , but I am tired of the guessing game. IDK maybe $50 or $60 dollars would get me to consider a fold. I still think we are looking at maybe two pair and maybe big pockets (no Jacks) and we are best most of the time. They have played pretty passive, even the river min raise is pretty weak. All the info about being trappers give me pause with their "hanging around" no offense Teddy KGB.

I'm with Bene. I'm calling the $15 with the general feeling that the Hawk is, at worst, going to call. If he was going to do something crazy, he likely would have raised the bet himself.

Sigh-calling. I'm not convinced that we've lost, Cougar appears to be extracting min value, but we could be ahead.

How much to get me to fold... normally, I respect the 3x raise... but $45 here isn't quite enough to get me out. $50 in the pot on the turn... A good bet of $25-30 on your part, leading to a raise to $75... I'll be a believer at around that spot.