So we're having a cash game at the tail end and after our tournament. typically we just do NLHE. This time we're adding PLO. How do you home game guys typically handle mix games? Do you do one orbit and alternate the game or by time?

Any words of warning before we do this. Probably going to play 6 -8 handed.

We alternate by orbit, but for no particular reason. It seems like it is easier to manage than constantly watching the clock.

Remember that PLO plays higher than the same blind levels of NLHE, so bear this in mind when it comes to your group.

Have fun!!

We do it by orbit as well, though we will generally do two orbits of NLHE, because it tends to go a lot of quicker than the other games.

I do by time. Anywhere from 30-60 minutes a round depending on how long we are playing. Works well except for the 4 hand PL Tahoe Pitxhand Roll round we had last week. Every hand had 3 allin players...

We usually sequence it HHO or even HHHO. One of these options might appeal more to people used to holdem. Besides, the holdem orbits tend to move quicker.

Also, reduce your blinds by half. If you usually play .25/.50 NLHE, make it .25/.25 or even a single .25 blind for PLO. Believe me, the pots will still be larger.

Alternate by orbit, so that the game always changes on the same person. If someone busts out or decides to sit out, advance the game change position by one spot to the left (that way, someone can't strategically sit out hoping to "make Omaha go faster").

I've run a weekly holdem/PLO cash game for several years. Here are my tips:

1. Protect the players: Before the game starts, give some rudimentary advice, and remind players they have to use exactly 2 cards. Remind them of this between hands. Players HATE it when they try to use 3 then stack off.

2. Protect the players: Lower the blinds for PLO to half the hold'em blinds. If you play 0.25/0.50 NLHE, make PLO 0.25/0.25. Resist the players who think lower blinds are "sissy."

3. Protect the players: Consider playing the game "cap" style, meaning no one can commit more than $X into a single hand, say, 100bbs. Once the cap is reached, that player is considered all in. This will prevent players from losing all their hard-earned hold'em money in PLO. Alternatively, set a limit to the size of the pot.

4. Simplify and Organize: PLO is pot-limit, so the pot has to constantly be counted. It helps if your chip structure and other rules help make the pot easy to count. I like the 0.25 bb in PLO because that makes the open pot-raise of $1, which is a single chip. Don't play PLO using something like 0.10/0.20, which is a ton of dimes to count, whether or not someone raises. Restrict the use of unnecessary chips from pot-limit play. Round up the sb to the bb if that will help. Maybe even round up the pot post-flop to the nearest $1, or whatever.

5. Manage the game: Learn the tricks of counting pot so you can help things go smoothly. And make sure people don't splash the pot. Keep the chips stacked nicely in front of each player until the pot is good. Then have them push it into the middle in an orderly fashion. Don't just sloppily push and mix all the chips into the middle. Don't cave into the temptation to play it no-limit. (However, if you do, at least make it pot-limit through the flop. This could be a decent format.)

Nice post! I agree that protecting the players is crucial for the longevity of the game. Playing the game capped is a good compromise until players learn PLO.

I really love this forum. All the well thought out responses here make my life easier on game nights. We'll probably have to play 0.10/0.10 PLO, but thats ok. I want to eventually ramp up to .25/.50 hold 'em so we'll get to .25/.25 PLO as well eventually. This is a first time for one or two players. I might take the 100BB limit rule, sounds good.

If you do 0.10/0.10 PLO with quarters (0.25 chips) on the table, a good idea is to allow the open pot raise to be 0.50 rather than 0.40 (2 quarters is cleaner than 4 dimes).

If you want to be a stickler for an exact pot raise, you can have the button ante 0.10, which will raise the exact pot open to 0.50. (This is what I did in the early days of my game.)

Thanks for the advice. I have a feeling the game will be moving slowly so I don't anticipate having excess chips on the table being a huge issue.

The game tends to proceed slowly because of pot counting, which is made more difficult when there are a large number of low denom chips in the pot.

I suppose you can worry about that at a subsequent game (if there is one), since by far the biggest problem with PLO is pissed off hold'em players.

But I think the length of the orbit (partly caused by chip counting) is one of the other big turnoffs of PLO. (In a similar way, people hate 7-stud in large part because of its slow pace.)

Just something to consider.

Anyway, good luck and let us know how it goes!

I lol'd. True that!

Great posts, sir!

This is the reason I would play PLO with a single .25 blind. It puts only .05 more in dead money vs .10/.10, and you avoid another sub-dollar denom from complicating the pot counts.

Yes, it does more than double the starting bet size. But God, quarters are bad enough. I would hate to count nickels too.

We do $0.10/0.20. We play with $0.10 / $0.50 / $1.00 in chips. I guess we'll see how bad it really is. I don't want to change up the chip denoms this game as we're doing it tonight. I might for future games if it gets crazy.

We sometimes play a mixed NLHE/PLO game after our Uni tournament. We just do dealer's choice between HE and PLO but don't change the blinds or anything - we just keep them at 5/10p (we're just students after all!)

This makes me want to pull out my hair. YOU DO NOT NEED TO COUNT THE CHIPS IN A POT. You count the bets and keep track.

If you can't do this ..... learn .... not just for playing PLO. knowing how much is in the pot is generally considered useful for playing all forms of poker.

OK, got you. This minimizes the chips and counting, and if people are already used to these denoms, why change for this? I won't pass judgement on your non-standard chip values.

easy there . plenty of inexperienced players struggle to keep track of everything, no problem in helping keep track of the pot size. We did it for our first PLO once it was clear it would speed up the game immensely.

I'm all for improving our game. What would be the judgement on non-standard chip values. All my chips are non-denom so if I make a change that's fine, but I want to do it sooner rather than later.

We've only been playing with these chip values (cash games) maybe 5 times? Assuming we keep the blinds comparable to $0.10/$0.20

25c, $1, $5, $25 are the standard denoms, if you add in 10c chips and play $0.10/$0.25 then that would be closer to a standard breakdown.

Right. I understand the chip breakdown when doing it that way, but this would create a problem when trying to make an omaha game still right? Everyone is suggesting make blinds smaller for omaha vs nlhe, but I don't think we can do lower than $.10/.20 right? Unless I did $.10/.10

Wow, the $0.50 is a great idea, actually, especially for a bb=0.10. This is even more reason to allow a $0.50 open raise in PLO (compared to a normal $0.40 pot bet); someone can open for a single chip rather than four dimes. Definitely consider this minor rule adjustment. If you do allow a $0.50 open, you might also want to make an exception to the one-chip rule for $0.50 chips. (My game does not use the 1-chip rule because opening for $1 is so common that the 1-chip rule creates more problems.)

Of course, it is somewhat inefficient to have 0.50 and 1.00, but it might seem too weird to have a $2.50 chip.

Good luck tonight. Give us a trip report.


I doubt someone would want to spend the night tracking the pot exactly for all the players for every hand. It's tiring and definitely not fun. And realistically, the hold'em players (especially the casual ones) won't do it, certainly not exactly, out of habit. So they need something to fall back on.

Yes, knowing the approximate pot size is useful, but in PLO, players are going to say "pot", which requires an exact count. Even players who are consciously tracking the pot will usually have to double check by counting chips (especially when someone asks, "Are you sure?")

Add in beer, casual conversation, Words With Friends, and a late night, and people will lose track of the pot.

I've spent years playing with winning, 2+2, EV-calculating math/science nerds. Chips usually still need to be counted when there is significant action. Occasionally we'll have a "Rainman" at the table we can count on, but not always, and even then people often want verification.

By the way, serious NLHE players may track the pot exactly in part because under NL rules nobody is obligated to tell them pot size. Therefore, it's entirely up to that player to track the pot himself. However, in pot-limit, you are entitled to know pot size. So I can imagine otherwise disciplined players slacking off on tracking pot since they know they can call for a count whenever they want. Perhaps this is what happened at my game, since we also play hold'em pot-limit.


One last point on psychology. Mental arithmetic is mentally taxing and will deplete the glucose in your pre-frontal cortex more quickly. The pre-frontal cortex monitors and regulates emotions. When it is depleted, you will tend to act more rashly. ("The pot is exactly $41.75, and he bet 83.8% pot, thus denying me proper odds... **** it, maybe he's bluffing, I call.")

So when playing a pot-limit session, it may be optimal to not personally track the pot to conserve energy.

(Maybe this is why Stud players seem to be the grumpy types; tracking those cards is wearing them down.)

For .10/.20, I can't complain about the chip values being used. It gives the game a European flair. But you are very close to a .25/.25 game anyway, so why not use standard chip values? It will help you in the future play in other games that use the more standard chips.

No, no, no. 5c would be the next standard denom, not 10c. If OP is going to play anything like .10/.25 he would be adding a chip denom that does nothing but pay the SB, and prevent .15 in blinds from going into each pot, assuming SB folds. Is that worth it?

Plus, how would the SB complete the .25 bet? Pull back his .10 and put in the .25? Would everyone need 1 or 2 .10 chips for this? It really is not worth the hassle.

Instead, make your life simple by playing .25/.25 or a single .25 blind.

For PLO, try a single .25 blind with a cap to start, as already suggested.

Funny you say that. For the first four games we were using:
whites = $0.10
reds = $0.50
blues = $2.50

It seemed to work fine, but I felt people were using the blues a lot and over betting. So I scaled it back to blues= $1.00 last game. However, the crowd I had last game was a completely new group. They did play for a lot smaller pots though. I'm going to ask the group tonight what they'd rather keep the blues at. Maybe $0.10/0.10 is best and allow an open raise to $0.50 like you said.

I'll have to search the "one chip rule" not sure what that is.

Great Post!!!!