I had kind a weird situation come up at a home game this past weekend. This is a raked underground $2/$5 NLHE game that has been running every week at the host's apartment for at least five years. The game is uncapped and usually plays pretty big. The host also serves as the main dealer for the game and generally does a great job, but he kinda seemed to be having an off night this week for whatever reason.

Here's what happened: Villain and I have about $875 effective stacks. There's a $10 straddle on the BTN, the blinds fold, Villain makes it $35 from UTG, there's one call from MP, I 3bet to $85 from the CO with QQ, straddler on the BTN shoves all in for $137 total, and action is back on Villain. The dealer pulls the original $35 bets into the pot, leaving the chips from my raise and the BTN's re-raise in front of us.

After tanking for 20 seconds or so, Villain asks the dealer "can he [meaning me] re-raise?" The dealer takes a second to look at the bets in front of me and the BTN, and responds "well, um, he raised to $85, and she [meaning the BTN] made it $52 more... no, he [meaning me] can't re-raise."

I realized right away this answer was incorrect. Because my raise was $50 on top of the original $35, the BTN's shove for $52 more re-opens the action when it gets back to me. I chose not to say anything. Villain tanks for another 10 seconds or so and makes the call. The player in between folds, and now it's back to me.

I ask the dealer "It's $52 more to me, right?" He confirms that's the correct amount. "OK, so I CAN re-raise then."

"No, because you... wait... yeah, OK, sorry, you're right."

Villain isn't happy to hear this. "Wait a minute! You told me before I put my money in that he couldn't re-raise!"

Apparently not knowing what to do, the dealer says to me "yeah, I did tell him that you couldn't raise before he made the call."

I say to both the dealer and the villain that I'm sorry, but him giving Villain the wrong information doesn't mean I don't get the option. I announce "raise" and put in another $325 on top. Villain eventually calls, flops an OESD, ships the rest of his stack in, bricks out and gets felted.

Should I have spoken up when the dealer incorrectly advised Villain that I wouldn't have the option to raise? Or, alternatively, should Villain have been allowed to take back his $102 call once the mistake was realized? Or is this just a case of Villain failing to protect his action by relying on the dealer to figure out for him whether the raise was enough to re-open the betting?

RRoP says you have an ethical obligation to speak up if you see an error taking place. Not correcting the dealer/host here is a real scummy move.

As played, Villain called and should be held to the call. If it was me, I would have give him his $102 back since he got incorrect information after the hand if I won. But then, I would have correct the dealer.

But this isn't really the same thing as the pot being awarded to the wrong hand or someone putting the wrong amount of chips in the middle, is it? I honestly wasn't sure (and still am not really sure) whether the "ethical obligation to speak up" applies in this case.

Regardless of RROP, if you ever catch the dealer (or anyone) making a mistake in informing someone of a rule of the game, speak up.

Obligation or not, you always want the proper rules to be known and followed by everyone. The alternative is creating spots like this one, where the house is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and you could have prevented it. It's bad for you, bad for your opponents, and bad for the game. And it's not always going to play out in your favor either.

You probably did come away from this looking a bit like an angle-shooter in Villain's eyes, and maybe in others' eyes as well, though I can tell that it wasn't intentional. A brief apology might have been appropriate.

Ignoring the ethical obligation, reverse it. How would you feel you the one who asked if action was reopened, was told no, called, and then your opponent immediately speaks up arguing action is reopened to him. I'm betting you'd be upset. I'm also betting you'd believe the villain knew the entire time and keep his mouth shut just to get some extra chips.

The bottom line, you want people to play with you. Do you really think you can remain in the game long if people think you play unfairly?

OP.

Question for you .... why was it that you didn't speak up immediately. Was it because you wanted your opponent to act on the basis on the bad information? Or was there another reason?

Yes, if you intended to raise when it next became your turn to act.

Buzz

Speak up. For so many reasons mentioned.


Staying quiet only has one reason, to extract dollars disingenuously. Even if you weren't sure, you could ask for clarification, even when you don't intend to re-raise. Just so everyone knows the correct ruling, and nobody ends up playing gotcha. You didn't "out poker" your opponent, you took advantage of a dealer error.

I would never ask this question, and I don't think a dealer should answer it directly. In my opinion, the better procedure would be for the dealer to simply clarify the rule and the amount of the bets, and allow the player to figure out for themselves whether the action is reopened.

Yeah, that's why I was concerned enough to create a thread about it. I depend on these home games for a part of my income, so I try not to do anything that could get me a reputation as someone who isn't good for the game.

The main reason was I didn't want to give anything away about the strength of my hand or my intended action while it was still Villain's turn to act. I honestly think I would have spoken up and corrected the error if I hadn't been worried that anything I said might somehow influence Villain's action. (FWIW my normal M.O. is that when I'm involved in a hand, I sit silently and don't say anything except to announce my action or [as in this case] to clarify the amount of a bet.)

It's a procedural question. Dealer/TD/Floors should always answer procedural/rule questions. Otherwise, we get back into the problem you got into in your OP. They aren't advising the player how to play but what his options are.

By being silent, Hero opens himself up to several potentially unhappy rulings.

The host/floor/dealer might rule that once he took a public position it would not be right to change it for this hand and bar Hero from raising even though he technically should be allowed to raise.

There also could be a ruling allowing the victim to retract his call given the incorrect ruling might have greatly influenced the decision to call.

There is a small chance Hero gets his walking papers over the issue too. That would depend on how good/poor Hero's relationship with the house is. I would have been really irritated as the host since it was obvious that Hero knew about the error and stayed quiet.

I would have taken the second option and allowed the call to be taken back as best for the game. It can not be a good thing for the host to make a serious simple error, allow a player to act on the bad information and then change the ruling back all in the space of a minute.

Winning players should think about the meta-game. The most serous error such a player can make is get kicked out of a game. The choice not to speak was bad for the game, bad for the owner of the game and ran risks far greater than the modest gain in that one hand.

DrStrange

Jim nailed it. As an intentional angle-shoot, this is a penny-wise, pound-foolish move. It might help you win this pot, but there's a significant chance that you get a reputation for being an angle-shooter and/or bad for the game. This isn't good in a game that you depend on for regular income.

But based on this quote:

I don't think angle-shooting was OP's intent. I still think staying silent was the wrong move, but it sounds like his reason was to avoid giving away any info. Keep in mind that this doesn't matter to the other players (and perhaps the house), though, as they still probably saw it as a scummy move.

I disagree. The dealer's job is to manage the game, not just toss cards. While there are certain questions he cannot answer, like "How much is in the pot?" in a NL game, he should always answer any procedural or rules question correctly. And when the dealer answers such a question incorrectly, you should always speak up.

To me you must speak up when ever you see something wrong. In this case you were wrong to keep silent. On the other side of the issue, the Villain acted on bad information from the dealer and he shouldn't have to pay for it

It's border to allow the villain to take his bet back. Or you could of spoke up yourself and given his extra bet back.

When the dealer / host gave what you thought was an incorrect answer, you should have questioned / corrected it, even if you were not planning to reraise. That way you are not really giving away any information about your hand by talking.

+1

I do understand it looks scummy but by correcting the dealer he is showing the other player that he is aware he is able to reraise which is information he shouldn't have to reveal. This can lead to the other player considering that you may have the intention to reraise (or worse) may have even sized your 3bet intentionally to give yourself that option.

In a true self-dealt home game I would correct the dealer but in a raked game ran to make a profit I would not if it didn't benefit me. I would also argue that in the event the other player is refunded his call the money can come from the rake the house are charging.

The last thing I would do would be to tip my hand by correcting the dealer. The caller could be simply looking for information, angling. I would hope that someone else would speak up as the rest of the table has the same obligation to speak up. I might ask, loud enough for all to hear, but seemingly directed at my neighbor, "is that right?" when the explanation was given. I would offer his bet back, but wouldn't expect everyone to do that.

Poker lessons can be expensive. It should be clear to all players what is going on.

Correcting the dealer does not tip your hand if you would correct him whether you planned to reraise or not.

Has anyone considered the possibility of V himself angle-shooting to extract information about V's hand here?

I think I did.

How would he know if this is my normal behavior?

He doesn't have to. In fact, he might think your correcting the dealer means you are strong. But it doesn't matter, because it doesn't really mean that, you would have corrected either way. In this case it could be correct that you are strong, but that was just a coincidence.