OP, you say he had quads 2-3 times per 4-5 hour sessions. When that happens, you should be very alarmed immediately, because that number is only including showdown hands. Did you notice how many pots he played when he was dealing or when he was the person who shuffled the current deck in play? Just because he won the pot as the dealer without showing, doesn't mean he didn't deal himself a monster that hand as well.

Any suspicion of cheating should prompt you to uninvited him from your games. Innocent until proven guilty isn't applicable here-this person isnt entitled to an invitation, so if there is anything he does that the others aren't comfortable with, then he should be banned.

Also, if you only have one deck, a cut card, and have one person shuffle, another person cut, and a third person deal in rotation, you shouldn't have this problem unless everyone else is in on it.

As for outing him, explain to your friends what you've said in the thread. Shouldn't be too problematic, since game integrity is a bit of an issue in home games.

Just a word of warning to folks about deck handling: I've never been in a game where we caught a mechanic, but I have seen the following issues from self dealt games.

Dealer looking at non-shown down hands as he gathers the deck to pass tot he next dealer. Shady, but not that big a deal. Usually it's just overwhelming curiosity, and once someone is told they didn't pay to see the hand, they take it fine and stop doing that.

Dealer checking the deck to see if his draw is going to come in when facing a bet on the flop or turn (usually by taking the deck off the table and peaking while others tank).

We lost my favorite whale to this in one of my home games. I'm sure I lost a few pots to him I might not otherwise have, but given that he basically couldn't fold draws without knowing whether it would come or not, I think I actually lost more in value when he folded since he knew it wouldn't come. Once we caught him though, we had to cut him loose for game integrity reasons, and I had the sads. He was very profitable to play against, even when he was cheating.

hahaha. what a fish. i can imagine him going into the tank and then declaring 'let me check to see what they next card is' - proceeds to look at next card - 'i call'.

why did you guys tell him he technically isn't allowed to cheat and not to do it again?

Any updates on the cheater since the first verbal mention to him? What's the current status?

No, I never used the word "cheating".

I walked into a house where I knew 1 of about a dozen people.

I flopped a boat and lost to rivered quads on the first hand I was dealt.

I think I said "are you effing serious" and made a few sarcastic remarks as I was buying more chips. I apologized later in the night. They laughed and said it was a disgusting first hand.

There wasn't a person in the room who thought I was out of line.

I think someone not being a bit skeptical in my situation(whether right or wrong) would be a bit naive. It's poker. Gotta look out for yourself.

He was dropping the cards below the table and peaking while someone else tanked. Most of us were paying attention to the other tanker, as we know he was calling if he had a draw or 2nd pair+. When he folded, we just assumed he didn't have a draw that time.

Host caught him when he saw the coming cards due to the flash of color when sitting next to him. Obv not a sophisticated cheater.

Only 1 person on the group has had communications with Mr. X and that's his employee. The only time I see employee is at the card games. Outside of that, all players have been notified and each has handled the event differently. When I spoke with the others, the first name that came up was Mr. X. This did not surprise me as the continuous streak of multiple quads on a nightly basis seemed off.

In summary, we will be taking additional steps to ensure the game is secure by using cut cards, mandatory cuts and have the deck shuffled 2 people forward with the middle person cutting the deck.

Thank you all for your input and advice with this thread and always be aware of your surroundings

Make sure the burn cards go under the flop. I heard of a game where the dealer would switch his cards with the burns after the turn was dealt.

Not to jump on the violent side, but this seems like a mandatory ass beating. At the least you should have confronted this person and got your money back before letting him walk out of your home. Not trying to be a cyber tough guy either, but there's no scenario where I'm watching some ******* blatantly cheat me and my friends. I understand the importance of verifying that cheating was taking place before taking action, but once it was verified by multiple sources, I would have confronted Mr. X. If he's a hothead then so be it, let him get hot and act an ass in front of a group of people getting cheated.

On a side note it blows that you can't trust people these days. Hitting quads frequently should have been a flag tho.

Mind elaborating, very curious

While this type of street justice sounds satisfying and plays well in the movies, it's really bad advice in the real world.

Assaulting someone like this is a quick way to f*** up your life. If the guy presses charges, at best you beat it by spending thousands of dollars defending yourself, at worst you go to jail, lose your job, and have a felony assault conviction following you around for the rest of your life.

Do you think confronting him would be a good idea or would you let him keep playing and taking your money? There is no scenario where this person gets to walk away with mine and my friends money in my mind. I'm a laid back person, but this man is in your home stealing from you and your friends. Not saying anything at the time and approaching him later is a foolish move. At the very least call him out while he is doing it and bring it to the rooms attention. I'm just not seeing where letting him walk out with all the money and then paying everyone back out of your pocket is the move here?

Let's not get stupid and make a bad situation worse.

You can't just go and deliver vigilante justice based on your opinion about an alleged cheat in a card game. Ask OJ Simpson how that worked out for him.

More than that, the players are interconnected socially and financially. If I recall correctly, there are employee/subordinate issues here and business ties as well.

It might look good in theory, but in reality you can't beating up and rob someone at a card game without legal peril. Everyone at the game sounds like they are able to spend money on legal combat. You beat that guy up and rob him - not only will you meet the police and prosecutor but you might end up being sued for damages.

Suck it up and learn a lesson -=- DrStrange

I agree with confronting a cheat at the table when you have multiple players in agreement. He should be asked to leave the game without his stack. No coming back, ever. Other than that, there is not much else that can be done (or should be done). Lesson learned , in this particular case, FINALLY.

This is not Tombstone 1881. "Why Ike, Whatever do you mean?"

I'm not going to lie, this was my instinctual response. But after taking a deep breath, I know it's a bad play even if it might feel good in the moment.

I am a bit surprised that Mr. X was allowed to redeem his stolen chips on the night he was caught, though. If I catch a cheat in the act at any game, I'll be damned if I'm going to let him collect on his ill-gotten gains from that very night, even if I'm helpless to do anything about his thieving on previous nights.

If he raises a hand to anyone to get "his" money, now he's the one initiating violence, and there's a whole room full of witnesses. And I can't say I'd be too upset if he gets himself hurt trying to essentially rob the game. He deserves whatever he's got coming.

Speaking of which, everyone has a boss, right? Who is his boss? If I had an employee who was involved in something like this with one of his subordinates, I would really want to know. If he can't conduct himself honorably at a friendly game of cards, it stands to reason that he can't be trusted with whatever authority he has.

Absolutely confront him. Do not resort to violence, but confiscate all of his chips and send him walking. I know that will not pay everyone back, but it punishes him a little.

I considered negotiating the return of all the money he had stolen in exchange for not spreading the information that he is a cheat. But then I realized that would be a disservice to everyone he cheats in the future. Better to let the rest of the money go and broadcast to the poker community that he is not to be trusted.

Hey, he is one for two, an average that would get him into the baseball hall of fame!

I'd feel the same way, but I'd like to think I'd keep my cool.

Yeah, I'm on the same page with you here. I wrote my response without reading yours and we are of a mind.

Stopped right here and Grunch...it's criminally naive for this to have taken five sessions much less five years to figure out. That's far enough out there where the proof is the results even if you can't figure out the process. That aspect of it is probably the best lesson to take into the future.

This thread - and OP - are ponderous.

It's a good point, assault conviction would prevent you from going to other countries

This thread may have run it's course, but has been informative for a lot of folks. Definitely for myself. Suspected cheating has been brought up here before and usually it's just sour grapes or some bad luck. Other times innocent behavior "looks" suspicious to some posters. Here we seem to have a case of real cheating over a long period of time for a fairly large amount of money. The reasons why this went on so long unsuspected and undetected have been covered very well. Also many good suggestions as to how it could have been averted have been presented by lots of folks.

Thanks to the OP for opening up this difficult situation to the forum. I will be watching my "regs" just a little closer, and making sure our shuffling, cutting and dealing have the simple safeguards that many folks have suggested.

Yes, this was a special episode of the Home Poker Forum. We laughed, we cried, we saw God. And the courage of OP to bring up this most difficult of topics is inspiring. I for one am changed forever...

Grunching, but if all you really sat by and did nothing while someone hit quads multiple times per session for five years, you deserve to lose your money.

Thanks for the Troll, always good to hear feedback from good folks like you.

You've always been an inspiration to me. Thank you for being who you are.