Today Mr X was confronted and denied any wrong doing. This was a likely possibility. I reached out to the person who confronted and obtained some additional background information. Sounds like things are not going so well financially by Mr X. I have asked his co worker to set up a meeting IF this comes up again with myself, the original host when I was introduced to the game and the coworker. 2 of us witnessed the cheating first hand. Hoping to get closure from this to get the salty taste out of everyone involves mouth.

Seeking closure and ready to move on.

Sounds like a wafer-thin excuse to actively cheat his friends out of tens of thousands of dollars over five years.

And in the end, he still can't man up and apologize, even when directly confronted. Mr. X has a lot of growing up to do.

Hopefully something comes of this tues or wed and a meeting is set up. At this point, I am looking for closure.

The closure is never talking to this douche again and going on with your lives. Meeting with him and him trying to con his way out of it isn't going to give any more closure imo.

This is a waste of your time, IMO. He's just going to deny doing it and he'll claim that you guys are just jealous of him because he's on a permanent lucky streak. Without physical proof it's just both of your words vs his and he's probably smart enough to realize that. I'd just skip the meeting, act like he's dead and just move on with everyone else.

Sure, he isn't invited back, but he bilked you guys for tens of thousands of dollars (if not in the hundreds of thousands). All you've really done by alerting him that you know of his cheating is make him realize he has to improve his technique, which I can guarantee he'll try to play in another game eventually

Did Mr. X seem to do anything differently over the years when he was the one hosting the game at his house? ie trying to find other advantages when he kind of has a "home field advantage" thing going on.

Movado, could you elaborate a bit more on Mr. X's technique? In re-reading your old thread from last year, you mentioned how often he would get quads. Were the sick hands only happening when he was dealer? Or perhaps also when he was the shuffler (that would make him hijack on the hand he shuffled, right?) he got obscenely "lucky", too?

If he was also getting non-stop quads while in the BB, for example, there's still some explaining to do.

Another procedure for you to implement: the reason for burning a card is to prevent display of a marked card on top of the deck prior to the next street. (It's not necessarily marked from cheating, perhaps through normal wear and tear.) In any case, you should not burn a card until it's time for the next street. Anyone pre-burning cards while action is pending is creating an opportunity to recognize a marked card in advance.

Just offering a cut doesn't help if it isn't always done, and mechanics can uncut a deck anyway. You have to have a different person shuffle than the one who deals, and and a third person cut Shuffling behind just works a lot more smoothly than shuffling ahead, I have tried both ways.

X denying wrongdoing was not likely, it was guaranteed. This is why you want to have video evidence. Without proof, it's just the word of one against the word of a few others.

Seeking closure is a waste of time. You thought this guy was your friend, and you're all hurt by what he did. Both financially and emotionally. It's normal to want closure when you part ways with someone who you were close to. It's not going to happen. For you guys, closure is X admitting what he did. He's not going to do that. Not now, anyway. Maybe if everyone severs contact with him and he faces some actual consequences for his actions. Maybe if he is publicly called out or shamed, but probably not, because with a lack of evidence he'll just deny it.

Without having some kind of consequences, he's just going to deny what he did, which denies you the closure you seek.

Cut him off completely, and move on. This guy was never your friend anyway. He just tricked you into thinking he was so he could take advantage of you.

One last comment from me OP. Remember one of the cardinal rules of the Con man. Never give up on the con! A card cheat like Mr X is a form of con man in this case. Staying close to a group and pretending friendship while stealing their money is classic.

Unless huge pressure is applied he will never admit it. I doubt you have the ability or desire to go that far. If you can somehow get him to admit it he will have some BS excuse geared to make you forgive him and move on. There is no future between him , you , and the others. If he can do this, there is no limit to what he might be capable of.

Take this as a very serious lesson about him and about yourselves. This would likely seriously damage if not destroy my regular poker crew. IDK what it will do to yours. I hope you can get through it OK, but I think serious problems may be a result. Lack of confidence, or desire to play, or something that you need to watch out for and try to deal with. Sincerely Good luck with that.

I will try to recreate the maneuvers that I witnessed tonight. When the night ended, I did some searches online for "mechanics shuffle" and "base dealing." The techniques I saw on videos were not what Mr x was doing.

The shuffler also dealt the cards. I apologize if I was not clear on that. The shuffle would move forward and the the previous dealer would be offered a cut.

Thank you for the suggestion. We will implement not flopping, burning or turning until the action has been completed.

As far as the premium holdings, these happens primarily while Mr x was dealing. One really starts questioning him/herself with losses game after game. I started jotting down notes of hands I would play actually feel good about getting it in "good" as the huge favorite despite being being called with an inferior hand.

I am currently at work on cell phone, will try to post some hand histories tonight and a video showing what was happening.

Thanks for the advice. This will take some time to get over for the group. It was a close nit group of guys who all have a passion for playing. Another 2+2er graciously invited me to his group to get a better handle on things which is greatly appreciated. It will be very difficult letting the newly built room for poker to waste.

Having caught a cheater in my own game, I don't agree with this. Well, I guess since we caught him after three games, the "often without being noticed" part is somewhat true -- but to be clear we caught him because he literally got dealt AA once Every Single Orbit for two games in a row, which made me spend the third game doing nothing but watching him.

I learned that you can set a deck with no skill at all. And if he had paced himself he might still be getting away with it.

Square the deck with the cards facing yourself (bad -- but lots of people do this). Find two aces while doing that. Fumble the deck if necessary to complete this task (i.e., get another chance to square it) -- you can also decide to "wash" it as another excuse to have a mass of cards that you need to square up facing yourself. Find two aces and put them on the bottom of the deck. No slight of hand is required to do this, no mechanic skill is required. Just do it - no one is watching the guy squaring the previous deck, especially if you do that during the time the other deck is being dealt out. Then build a slug of prearranged cards by simply counting N cards from the top, then one ace, then another N cards from the top, then the other ace. You have to figure out what N is based on how many players are at the table and where this deck will be (two to your left in the standard shuffle-behind system) when it is being dealt.

You can do this while appearing to just be absent-mindedly stripping the deck badly. You can do it in plain sight - no one is watching.

At this point it is trivial to preserve this slug while appearing to shuffle the deck... do a very uneven division so that there are no cards to riffle into the slug you are preserving.

The hardest, and only "clever", part of what the guy in our game was doing was how he used a variety of social engineering hacks to avoid the cut (we use a standard shuffle-behind two deck system).

This part I agree with 100%. The easiest improvement for most games I've seen would be to start enforcing proper cut procedures. Every. Time. I also occasionally try to correct the worst-case abuses of bad shuffle procedures (guys who flash the bottom cards on every riffle, or people who bridge the cards) ... I don't expect to turn home players into Vegas dealers but I am in effect "advertising" that shuffles are being watched. I think this adds to the game's immune system especially if other players start doing it too.

Players shouldn't assume setting the deck is difficult. It's not.

Sorry don't agree. Just a different opinion. I Believe it takes lots of skill ( Learned and practiced) as your description of how to do it well without being obvious is clear about. HOWEVER, in this case the rest of the tables inattention, and the very sloppy shuffling and dealing procedures combined to make it easy even for a lesser skilled cheat to prosper.

Setting a deck might not be difficult. Setting a deck in plain sight with folks who are paying attention and using multiple shufflers and cuts and cut cards is VERY difficult IMHO. That's was really my main point. Doubt we actually disagree that much after all.

If the guy is cheating, at the very least, you should of informed everyone the very next day. To let this guy keep cheating your friends was wrong. If I noticed something, I would of told atleast one person telling them what to look for. This is to get the cheating confrimmed

This is also the prefect example of why not to use two decks. I didn't see any mention of a cut card.

I have personally informed everyone face to face and over the phone regarding the shenanigans that took place. A total of 3 people were informed (4 including me) and witnessed the cheating take place deal after deal. Everyone has handled it differently. The key takeaway is that everyone was happy I told them as they have a right to know. I even went as far as letting people know who have previously played other weeks back what happens this particular Saturday night.

I attempted to recreate the shuffle/deal and really struggled with it. Unsure on how long this took to perfect but it was certainly a large amount of time. Even thumbing through the cards was not easy, it was more chunks of cards than anything else.

Heard you on the PokerSesh! You're a celebrity!

I have no interest in being a celebrity. I am just trying to play a game I enjoy with friends in a safe enjoyable environment. Just trying to explain what happened. Another 2+2r who was at the game and said he will be posting what he witnessed as well.

Not to get too OT, but I tried to watch Pokersesh last week. After 10 minutes of a drunk Limon basically blasting music and not saying anything of substance, I was done.

You caught overtime! lol. RAAAAGGGGGGEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

It was a pretty awesome exchange. wish i had a recording of it i'd post it here.

That takes a lot of patience not to say anything immediately. I would have freaked out.

I don't understand the point of getting video evidence if everyone in the game can see him doing it, especially if your reason for not confronting him immediately is "he is a hot head." You think he's going to keep calm when he finds out his "close friends" recorded him? Not a chance. And he'll probably use it as some way to justify not paying anyone back or apologizing.

You all saw it. You don't need to prove to the cheater that he's a cheater. Stop the game, call him a piece of sh*t, tell him to leave, and divide his stack up. Nothing more you can do. Consider the money lost over the last several years an expensive lesson. A guy gets quads several times a session and the game keeps running normally for years. That's insanity.

I don't think it really hurts that to have video evidence. I think he is slightly more likely to pay with the video than w/o, but we are still talking about less than a 1%.

Either way, the reason I originally suggested the hidden video is because I have to see it to believe it, others can learn to watch for, and I think it would be funny to watch when you bust him.