Hey folks,

The game I go to is 1/3 or 2/5, depending on the day. The house rakes 10%, up to $15. I also tip the waitress roughly 2 per hour.

How you do learned scholars think these variables should affect my play? Additionally, what is an appropriate rate at which to tip the dealer?

Best,

BusterMcNutty

Most players toss the dealer a buck for every pot won. So, some quick math using 40 hands per hour with an average rake of $8.00, it equates to the following for each hour played . . .

$2.00 is leaving the table every hour to the waitress.
$40.00 is leaving the table every hour to the dealer.
$320.00 is leaving the table every hour in the form of rake.

So, in a 1/3 game, a full buy-in is leaving the table every hour, if not MORE.

How does anyone beat that over the long term?

They don't

Well, I personally tip the waitress that much; she's probably pulling down 25 or so per hour total. Most people also tip the dealer in relation to the size of the pot. Your estimates of hand speed and rake size are probably slightly high, but not unreasonable.

How does anyone beat that over the long term? They don't. I play TAG and have averaged about 10 BB/hour over my last 10 sessions, which were 40 hours or so. The previous 12 sessions or so were all losses, as I had only just started playing. After the last 10 sessions, I am the only career winner at the table. At an average game, one person will double or triple up, I will be up about 1/2 buy in, and everyone else will bust. That's why I have dramatically decreased the amount of time I sit at the table, since learning what I'm doing. However, this is the only game I currently have access to that isn't very, very shady, so if beating the rake is possible, I'd like to figure out how.

Over the long haul given that dynamic (especially considering that dynamic), it's not. The only person winning is the house in all its bits and pieces (dealer, floor, and server).

You're absolutely right. The dealer pulls in about 50 an hour, the server knocks down about 25, and the floor is making about 1,000 on an average night, depending on how long the game lasts.

I realize that this game is the definition of unbeatable; however, the other players are complete fools. Playing TAG is extremely effective, and after my initial learning curve, I have made money every session. Variance has been about neutral, maybe slightly favorable.

Any rake short of 100% can be beaten, in theory, if your opposition is bad enough.

That's in theory. In reality, even if your opponents are absolutely terrible by poker standards, they're not outright giving their money away. Even a monkey trained to shove with any hole cards with paint in them would have some equity. In that case, it takes time to play out a winning strategy, and that time costs more money the higher the rake is.

Maybe 10% to $15 is beatable in $2/$5. Possibly even in $1/$3. But it's a longshot that it's beatable in the first place, never mind that your opponents would keep coming back to hemorrhage money.

Eww that's brutal. Tip whatever you think is fair. As far as trying to beat it, lag it up and take advantage of the nits.

There are no nits - they are extremely loose and usually passive. Calling stations, even with my very tight image.

It sounds like you've already figured out how.

If it is the only game you trust, then you will just have to eat the structure, play your best and hope for some help from variance. You can likely break even or win a little over time under the best results, but you should consider this a purely recreational game and not a consistant money maker for you. According to your OP you are fairly new to poker so your sample size is too small to know whether you have really learned how to beat the game or if you are simply running good lately. Anyway this is a good forum to ask about games , but Beginners Questions is even better. Good luck to you.

This game may be beatable if it is deep enough. How much money will be on the table at the best of times for 2/5?

Here we are, on home poker, and no one can offer the easy and best answer?

Go find a home game. Not this underground commercial game discussed in the thread but a genuine home game. OK maybe you have to pitch in $5 for the drinks and snacks but that is it for costs.

Yes it is a little work to find these game (or to start one yourself) but the payoff is huge. I only play in unraked home games and I get in twelve or more sessions every month living in the middle of no where Texas. There are games out there - go look for them.

And don't pay the rake -=- DrStrange

^assumed it was a home game, otherwise the post would have been moved?

Not to derail but the 2/5 game I started playing in is 10%/10 and I think that's certainly beatable given how deep the game plays and the constant influx of new people. I also try n keep my tipping to a minimum because it's more money coming off the table

It's a home game with a rake; the runner bills it as the nicest game in our city, and I have no reason to doubt him. Everyone knows everyone, or does within a week or two. One table.

On average, the 2/5 game will have about 2,500 on the table, maybe 3,000. The 2/5 stacks are often only about 100 more than the 1/3 stacks - almost no one should be playing 2/5, as it only benefits the hosts. I have strongly considered just starting a home game myself, but the upfront costs of buying a table and such make it prohibitively expensive.

Buster where do you live?

This game is not beatable. This is an example of people taking advantage of poker players that feel they can "beat the rake" but it is not logistically possible. High-rake "home" games, $60-80 high-rake tournaments at casinos, etc are all designed for one winner, one break-even, and 4-6 losers at every table.

You are paying $200-$300 per hour to the house (or $20-30 per hour/person). If you think about it, it would be more profitable for you to invite the same crew to your place, have a dealer work for tips, feed everyone, not ask for a rake.... and you would end up with more money at the end of the night. You are personally paying $150 a night in rake. You could have this "catered" with drinks for that kind of money and still have some left over for table, chips, and cards.

I went through a very similar thing about 6-7 years ago when the lower-rake games disappeared around here. I went to 2-3 high-rake games, walked out with more money then I walked in with, and never went back. There is no long-term profit to be made.

Cliffs..... start you own non-rake game and make more money.

This.

While we normally frown on club game threads around here, this one shows exactly why you should not be playing in these games. Between ridiculously high rake and tips, most of them are nearly unbeatable even for strong players. You have to have a really special crowd of deep-pocketed idiots before you can expect to win consistently when several hundred dollars an hour is coming off the table.

Find a true home game. If you can't find one, start one.

HP Terminology 101:

When we talk about a "home game" in HP, we're talking about an unraked game that's usually (but not always) in your home. Any game that's raked for profit - whether in a home, warehouse, bar, whatever - is considered an "underground club" game.

It's interesting that we've had a number of these threads recently where a game hosted in someone's home among friends or acquaintances ends up being used as a golden goose for the host.

Raking a couple bucks to cover costs, no big deal. It might be a little tacky, and I know it's frowned upon here, but I can understand a host wanting to defray expenses or run the game more often or whatever. However, the past couple threads of this sort have been about games where the host is scooping money out of the game hand over fist, often taking advantage of less educated players who don't appreciate the effects that can have.

A rake of 10% to $15 at these stakes is very high even for a casino with much more overhead and risk. It's nearly as high as some cruise-ship casinos, where they have no competition and are basically skinning all the sheep as quickly as possible. For a game in someone's home, I have a hard time imagining how the host would rationalize it if a player were to ever call it into question.

Even if he only runs the game once or twice a week, he could easily be pulling down his entire annual income from it. And for what? I mean, sure, hosting is a lot of work, but it's not such a grueling task that it justifies this kind of greed.

This rake structure is murder. At least one 1/3 buy in leaves the table an hour.

Someone once commented about a thread that "this is not a home game, it is a raked club game in a home", still some times there are questions that cover both and the mods let it ride. OP said initially this was the only game he could trust, maybe he was right, but the other games must be really shady.

This is pretty shallow for these stakes. My game often has this much or more in play and we play a mixed game with .50/1 on NL and PL games.

I used to deal at some raked games and trust me, no one is coming out ahead except the house and the dealer.

Nobody beats that, period.